Should David Bain get compensation?

[smartcooky]

Does anyone else seriously propose the two murderers theory you support?

I first heard the theory back in 2010. It arose because there were a couple of real problems with the theory that Robin killed his family and committed suicide.

Firstly, there was no blood from the family at all on Robin's clothes. This is particularly significant because it is well established Stephen fought ferociously with his killer. The killer washed his bloody clothes in the laundry and got changed, so if Robin was the sole killer, intent on committing suicide, why would he bother with all that.

Secondly, none of Robins fingerprints were on the gun which there certainly should have been had he shot himself with it in the manner claimed by the defence.

However, if Robin Bain killed his family, and fully intended to get away with the murders, then its reasonable that he might have washed his clothes and got changed (certainly more reasonable than if he intended suicide) The theory then goes on to say that Robin cleaned the gun (explaining why his fingerprints were not on it). Then David comes home before Robin expects him to, finds his family murdered (explaining David's bloody footprints) and kills Robin.

 

[Samson]

Does anyone else seriously propose the two murderers theory you support?

Matthew Best:

This theory is a complete red herring.
Do not waste your limited time on it.

Trust me.

Even better buy Trial by Ambush as Holly Goodhead did. She is a stalwart for wrongful convictions.


Injustice Anywhere waves a fist at all manufactured evidence.

 

[The Atheist]

...It arose because there were a couple of real problems with the theory that Robin killed his family and committed suicide. ...

Didn't matter in the end - emotion, not evidence, ruled the second trial.

Karam, Wendy Petrie, the juror who just had to give the future William Davies a big hug, Samson, and all the people who cheered the not guilty verdict bought the idea. I will admit that having a superior, rapist, alternate murderer helped, just as the stupid pigs' lack of attention to evidence had plenty to do with it, too. "Shall we convict that nice young man or a beastly rapist who
s raping his own daughter?"

You have to hand it to Joe Karam - nobody else thought of making a murderer into a victim and profiting from it. Mark Twain wrote about the effect in Tom Sawyer, and we see the extreme end of it with the marriage between the ex-lawyer and rapist/murderer in jail the other day.

 

[Samson]

Didn't matter in the end - emotion, not evidence, ruled the second trial.

Karam, Wendy Petrie, the juror who just had to give the future William Davies a big hug, Samson, and all the people who cheered the not guilty verdict bought the idea. I will admit that having a superior, rapist, alternate murderer helped, just as the stupid pigs' lack of attention to evidence had plenty to do with it, too. "Shall we convict that nice young man or a beastly rapist who
s raping his own daughter?"

You have to hand it to Joe Karam - nobody else thought of making a murderer into a victim and profiting from it. Mark Twain wrote about the effect in Tom Sawyer, and we see the extreme end of it with the marriage between the ex-lawyer and rapist/murderer in jail the other day.

I mentioned Holly Goodhead because she works for the release of Jeremy Bamber, who in a similar fashion is taking the rap for a quad murder suicide by his sister.
Atheist:
You have not even once discussed the crime scene as found in Bain, and are defaming David Bain, albeit on kiwiblog this is rife so I suppose it is OK here too.
David Farrar runs the most read blog in New Zealand and he demeaned his credibility and joined the defamation brigade with the recent rifle return blog. He should be called to account by Joe Karam.

 

[The Atheist]

You have not even once discussed the crime scene as found in Bain,..

Incorrect. I've discussed it ad nauseum and see no reason to revisit it.

... and are defaming David Bain,...

That is truly tragic.

I don't see him bringing a defamation case anytime soon, because he might just get caught up in an OJ-style civil case where the evidence is re-examined and he is found on the balance of probabilities to have been the perpetrator.

That would be both funny and poetic justice.

David Farrar runs the most read blog in New Zealand and he demeaned his credibility and joined the defamation brigade with the recent rifle return blog. He should be called to account by Joe Karam.

Note that Karam's defamation actions have been people questioning his motives, not whether Baino is guilty.

Try figuring out why else neither of those two stalwarts of injustice has ever tried to make a claim against anyone when there is clear evidence of hundreds of "defamations", as you call them, or "facts" as most people call them.

 

[Samson]

Incorrect. I've discussed it ad nauseum and see no reason to revisit it.



That is truly tragic.

I don't see him bringing a defamation case anytime soon, because he might just get caught up in an OJ-style civil case where the evidence is re-examined and he is found on the balance of probabilities to have been the perpetrator.

That would be both funny and poetic justice.



Note that Karam's defamation actions have been people questioning his motives, not whether Baino is guilty.

Try figuring out why else neither of those two stalwarts of injustice has ever tried to make a claim against anyone when there is clear evidence of hundreds of "defamations", as you call them, or "facts" as most people call them.

I have never seen a David guilter explain the combination of the contact gunshot wound and the perfect suicide trajectory.
David would need to have calculated this prior to the hope his father would allow him near enough to make this shot. This datapoint kills your theory stone dead unless you can explain in words the steps in the real world leading to this singular outcome. And remember one shot only is allowed.

I am looking forward to your solution.
Thank you in advance, as they say.

 

[The Atheist]

I have never seen a David guilter explain the combination of the contact gunshot wound and the perfect suicide trajectory.

1 As you very well know, there is insufficient evidence to say with surety it was a contact wound thanks to the idiot pigs' lack of diligence.

2 Perfect suicide trajectory my backside.

 

[Samson]

1 As you very well know, there is insufficient evidence to say with surety it was a contact wound thanks to the idiot pigs' lack of diligence.

2 Perfect suicide trajectory my backside.

At least we have isolated some points, what is the most fundamental point you have that labels David as the killer, and I will try to discuss that.
One evidence point at a time is fine.

Would irrefutable evidence change your view or are you too far gone?

 

[The Atheist]

Would irrefutable evidence change your view or are you too far gone?

Of course, but unless you have something Joe or the second trial hasn't already heard you're just wasting your time repeating supposition.

I suspect your view of what constitutes "irrefutable evidence" differs from mine.

 

[theprestige]

At least we have isolated some points, what is the most fundamental point you have that labels David as the killer, and I will try to discuss that.
One evidence point at a time is fine.

Would irrefutable evidence change your view or are you too far gone?

Of course, but unless you have something Joe or the second trial hasn't already heard you're just wasting your time repeating supposition.

I suspect your view of what constitutes "irrefutable evidence" differs from mine.

Last period to post in this thread wins.

This signature is intended to irradiate people.

 

[Samson]

Last period to post in this thread wins.

This signature is intended to irradiate people.

I was attempting a cryptic crossword earlier, but I am no damn good.
The Bain case is part of a series that shows the darkest attributes of humankind, pitchforking victims by villagers. And this is in a country ranked least corrupt in the world. I attended a meeting today where I was stunned once more by machinery of state defeating the most important principle of government, attend to the interests of all your citizens.

No, I am not hyperbolising.

 

[smartcooky]

OK, so here is some of the evidence against David Bain that I have difficulty in dismissing...

Laniet
David said he heard gurgling and groaning. Only the killer could have heard that
David organised a family meeting for the night before the murders, and he insisted that Laniet be there and stay over.

The Gun
The gun belonged to David
He was the only person who knew the location of the trigger lock keys (he testified to this)
David's bloody fingerprints were found on the gun
David intimidated his family with his gun


Stephen
David had injuries consistent with a fight with Stephen
David's bloody gloves were found in Stephen's Room
The blood on David's clothes belonged to Stephen


Other topics
David washed the blood soaked clothes.
David fantasized about using his paper run as an alibi to commit a crime (testfied to by the person he told)
Robin Bain's body appeared to have been moved
David had no answer to many questions about evidence linking him to the murders.

 

[Samson]

OK, so here is some of the evidence against David Bain that I have difficulty in dismissing...

Laniet
David said he heard gurgling and groaning. Only the killer could have heard that
David organised a family meeting for the night before the murders, and he insisted that Laniet be there and stay over.

The Gun
The gun belonged to David
He was the only person who knew the location of the trigger lock keys (he testified to this)
David's bloody fingerprints were found on the gun
David intimidated his family with his gun


Stephen
David had injuries consistent with a fight with Stephen
David's bloody gloves were found in Stephen's Room
The blood on David's clothes belonged to Stephen


Other topics
David washed the blood soaked clothes.
David fantasized about using his paper run as an alibi to commit a crime (testfied to by the person he told)
Robin Bain's body appeared to have been moved
David had no answer to many questions about evidence linking him to the murders.

Smartcooky:
It is commonplace for the innocent, who discover a crime scene, to be unable with perfect mental acuity, to answer those questions that might link him to the crime scene.

I discuss this case, and the Watson case, and the Lundy case in prodigious detail with another member of this forum.

David Bain walked into a crime scene.
Amanda Knox walked into a crime scene.
Russ Faria walked into a crime scene.

The murders were committed by others.

 

[The Atheist]

Smartcooky:
It is commonplace for the innocent, who discover a crime scene, to be unable with perfect mental acuity, to answer those questions that might link him to the crime scene.

What a breathtaking example of dismissing physical evidence with a hand-wave.

Were you on the jury for the second trial?

 

[Samson]

What a breathtaking example of dismissing physical evidence with a hand-wave.

Were you on the jury for the second trial?

You have seen how juries operate in New Zealand. They don't even consider the hard physical evidence.
Blood on Robin Bain's Hands when he gets out of bed?
No Atheist, no, this alone illuminates the journey.
I am completely satisfied he killed his family after Laniet and Margaret went at midnight to drain the cash machine. The latter is uncontested fact that requires a real world explanation. Deny it with your evidence. Explain why they would do this before a completely surprise attack by their son and brother. And so on. The list mirrors the Lundy hoax I promise you.

 

[smartcooky]

Smartcooky:
It is commonplace for the innocent, who discover a crime scene, to be unable with perfect mental acuity, to answer those questions that might link him to the crime scene.

I discuss this case, and the Watson case, and the Lundy case in prodigious detail with another member of this forum.

Discovering the crimes scene does not account for

The injuries consistent with a fight
The broken spectacles in David's room and the missing lens in Stephen's room
David bloody fingerprints on the gun (and the lack of Robin's prints on same)
David's bloody gloves in Stephen's room
Why David washed the bloody clothes

You can't just dismiss these things with a handwave and a dubious comparison to other cases. You need back up your viewpoint by addressing how all of this evidence (in this post and my previous post) is consistent with David not having committed the crimes, on a point by point basis.

 

[Samson]

Discovering the crimes scene does not account for

The injuries consistent with a fight
The broken spectacles in David's room and the missing lens in Stephen's room
David bloody fingerprints on the gun (and the lack of Robin's prints on same)
David's bloody gloves in Stephen's room
Why David washed the bloody clothes

You can't just dismiss these things with a handwave and a dubious comparison to other cases. You need back up your viewpoint by addressing how all of this evidence (in this post and my previous post) is consistent with David not having committed the crimes, on a point by point basis.

I purchased a second hand copy of David and Goliath from that great second hand bookshop in Picton recently.
Joe answers those questions back in 1996.
I am planning to strongly suggest to him to put his books on kindle, so we can quote relevant tracts, there is no other way I envisage of clearing these matters up.

 

[The Atheist]

You have seen how juries operate in New Zealand. They don't even consider the hard physical evidence.

Nice admission.

I've campaigned against juries for decades, so you have no need to sell it to me.

I'm equally confident that a panel of professional jurists hearing the Bain evidence would have sent him back to jail.

 

[The Atheist]

Anyone with far too much time on their hands listening to the Stuff podcasts is welcome to keep the thread up to date with the evidence & conclusions!

 

[PhantomWolf]

Anyone with far too much time on their hands listening to the Stuff podcasts is welcome to keep the thread up to date with the evidence & conclusions!

Just started listening. If they have anything new and exciting I'll let you know, or you can listen to it here