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Split Thread Should creationism be taught as Science?

And the derail continues . . . . :(

The phrase "much that is religious" is too vague to mean anything. If you mean that we can use the scientific method to show that many claims in the bible are wrong (such as the universe is only 6000 years old) then that is true. But anything the bible says about God himself is beyond the realm of scientific testing.

For example, the notion that God determines the outcome when you roll dice (Proverbs 16:33) is totally unfalsifiable. You can say that it is nonsense but you can't say that "science proves" that this is nonsense. There endeth any discussion of gods in the science class room because science is theologically neutral.


What alternative scientific theories of evolution do you think should be considered, and on what basis do you think the current theory can be challenged?
 
And the derail continues . . . . :(

The phrase "much that is religious" is too vague to mean anything. If you mean that we can use the scientific method to show that many claims in the bible are wrong (such as the universe is only 6000 years old) then that is true. But anything the bible says about God himself is beyond the realm of scientific testing.

For example, the notion that God determines the outcome when you roll dice (Proverbs 16:33) is totally unfalsifiable. You can say that it is nonsense but you can't say that "science proves" that this is nonsense. There endeth any discussion of gods in the science class room because science is theologically neutral.


How do you mean, derail? I directly quoted your post, and directly addressed it, with zero spin, and in good faith. My response couldn't possibly have been a derail, not unless your own post itself was a derail.

Do you really want me to spell out religious stuff science has actively disproved? Seriously? Thunder? Olympus? Or don't non-Christian religions count as religious with you? And coming to the Bible, sure, the age of the universe, and the rest of that bilge, why not?

I made my position amply clear, I think. I clearly said that much of religion --- much, not all --- has been directly falsified by science. And the rest don't hold up to a scientific scrutiny either, because they don't provide compelling parsimonous explanation for our observations. That part of it is Sagan's dragon all over again. Non-falsifiable propositions aren't scientific, generally speaking, not science, generally speaking; and even when not directly falsified, unsupported random declarations are most certainly unscientific.
 
How do you mean, derail?
This thread is supposed to be about critical thinking in science classes (in spite of the inappropriate title).

Non-falsifiable propositions aren't scientific, generally speaking, not science, generally speaking; and even when not directly falsified, unsupported random declarations are most certainly unscientific.
Other than using the vague "scientific/unscientific", you are just paraphrasing me.

Re the old "invisible dragon" chestnut, it might serve a purpose to believe (or to convince others to believe) that there is an invisible dragon in your garage but other than pointing out that it is not scientifically falsifiable, it serves no purpose to discuss it in the science class room.
 
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This thread is supposed to be about critical thinking in science classes (in spite of the inappropriate title).


Ah, ok. A mod-split thread of a derail from another thread. Well then, while this is a derail off of that earlier thread, surely this is bang on here, given that is literally what this thread's about? And in any case, since my post directly addressed your own post, I don't see how you can describe mine as a derail, not unless you accept that yours itself was a derail, from whatever original course you may have had in mind for your thread.

...Anyway, moving on. I agree, teaching critical thinking in schools seems like a great idea. But why just in science, though? Why not literature as well --- for instance, discussing controversial authorship (Shakespeare? The Bible?), and/or controversial content, and/or critical analysis and criticism of plots (as opposed to merely literary analysis)? Why not history, that is one field that would be a great subject for critical analysis and evaluation. Civics as well, obviously. And most importantly in religion, in religious schools where they actually teach religious subjects.

In fact, given that critical thinking is something so sorely needed, and in practice so sorely lacking, it would be a terrific idea to properly teach it in schools, rigorously, I'm with you there; but given that it is needed in every subject, not just science but also literature, and civics, and history, and religion (where religion is taught, in religious schools) surely a better idea would be to have a separate subject called Critical Thinking, that teaches critical thinking both standalone, and also as it relates to specific subjects taught in other classes? Why single out just science?


Other than using the vague "scientific/unscientific", you are just paraphrasing me.

Re the old "invisible dragon" chestnut, it might serve a purpose to believe (or to convince others to believe) that there is an invisible dragon in your garage but other than pointing out that it is not scientifically falsifiable, it serves no purpose to discuss it in the science class room.


It's an argumentum ad absurdum. It shows how absurd the whole idea is, of even considering wild unsupported declarations (including of the kind the Bible makes, the unfalsified and unfalsifiable bits).

Think about it. In your scheme of things, in science class about evolution, you'd need to have Creationism also discussed, as well as Maori creation myths, as well as creation stories from Hindu mythology and ...well, why stop with religion, why not out-and-out fiction like the Silmarillion as well, and interesting sci-fi .....as well as, I suppose, wild random "theories" that students might be able to come up with themselves? That won't even be a science class any more.

And again, why just science class, right? Why not literature as well, and history as well, and civics as well, and religious studies as well (in religious schools)? Well, there also, those classes would devolve to chaos, and not even look like history classes any more, or civics classes, or literature classes.

Once again, your point about emphasizing teaching of critical thinking rigorously is well taken. But it makes sense to make it a separate subject, then, rather than merge that teaching with other subjects like history and science and literature and religious studies.
 
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I agree, teaching critical thinking in schools seems like a great idea. But why just in science, though? Why not literature as well --- for instance, discussing controversial authorship (Shakespeare? The Bible?), and/or controversial content, and/or critical analysis and criticism of plots (as opposed to merely literary analysis)? Why not history, that is one field that would be a great subject for critical analysis and evaluation.
By "critical thinking" what I mean is that lessons should be structured in the form of "We observe X", "We apply Y", "We conclude Z". Too many teachers short circuit this process and just say "Z". It may be that STEM teachers are in short supply - especially in public schools - but this teaching approach denies the student the tools they need when they hear a preacher say "scientists are lying".

Yes, this approach should be applied in other subjects ("Historian X says ..." "Records show ...") but that is for another thread to deal with.

It's an argumentum ad absurdum. It shows how absurd the whole idea is, of even considering wild unsupported declarations (including of the kind the Bible makes, the unfalsified and unfalsifiable bits).
I know what Carl Sagan was demonstrating here. "I say X now prove me wrong" is a ridiculous way to argue about something. I could just as easily say "You are making it up now YOU prove ME wrong" (which is not a scientific answer).

However, his assertion that there is no difference between believing in God and believing in invisible dragons remains that - just an assertion. One belief has a lot more adherents than the other but neither is scientifically falsifiable.

In your scheme of things, in science class about evolution, you'd need to have Creationism also discussed, as well as Maori creation myths, as well as creation stories from Hindu mythology and ...well, why stop with religion, why not out-and-out fiction like the Silmarillion as well, and interesting sci-fi .....as well as, I suppose, wild random "theories" that students might be able to come up with themselves?
If you read my posts properly you will see that I am arguing the exact opposite. Beyond saying "it's unfalsifiable" there is nothing to discuss within a scientific context.

However, since Judaeo/Christian/Islamic religions are so prevalent and have so many believers, it might be worth giving Genesis a second look to see if any of it is reconcilable to scientific principles. https://answersingenesis.org/ attempts to do so and it could be quite instructive for students to examine the flaws in their reasoning but that is an aside and not something that I am advocating (I am merely distinguishing between things that are widely believed and things that almost nobody believes).
 
Ad-hom instead of addressing my points. I take that as "I yield". Match over.
If I don't address other points in your post it is because I don't disagree with them.

But if you are going to say that I am advocating examining every crack pot "goddidit" theory under the sun in a science class room then I am perfectly entitled to go beyond "you don't understand what I posted". You might as well ask me when I stopped beating my wife.
 
The wording in the article was "Teachers and students should be able to discuss the strengths and weaknesses of these theories openly and without fear of retribution or discrimination of any kind."

Regardless of the GOP agenda, if you or anybody else has a problem with these words then you are just being as zealotous as the GOP.

The statement was carefully worded precisely so that this sort of defence could be made for it. Disregarding the agenda and making it is playing right into their hands.
 
The statement was carefully worded precisely so that this sort of defence could be made for it. Disregarding the agenda and making it is playing right into their hands.
Not really. If their real agenda is to get ID taught as "valid" science then sooner or later they are going to have to drop this facade and won't be able to fool anybody anymore.

In the mean time, nobody is saying "we must not have ID taught as valid science in schools". They are responding to the "carefully worded" statement and saying "we must not have critical thinking in schools". That is damaging.
 
I'm not falling for that trick again.


The questions can only “trick” you if you don’t have valid answers to them. And since the only alternative you have offered is “goddidit”, it looks rather as if you don’t.

The ball is in your court.
 
They are responding to the "carefully worded" statement and saying "we must not have critical thinking in schools". That is damaging.

I see we have arrived at Psions "I lie because I am very angry that no one agrees with my silly assertions"-stage. :(
 
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By "critical thinking" what I mean is that lessons should be structured in the form of "We observe X", "We apply Y", "We conclude Z". Too many teachers short circuit this process and just say "Z". It may be that STEM teachers are in short supply - especially in public schools - but this teaching approach denies the student the tools they need when they hear a preacher say "scientists are lying".

Yes, this approach should be applied in other subjects ("Historian X says ..." "Records show ...") but that is for another thread to deal with.


Not really. My point was this: this applies to science, and also to religious studies (where taught), and also to history, and also to civics, in short to practically everything that's taught. So that, while it's good to teach critical thinking, but it makes sense to teach it separately.

(Like you know, teaching English? Good to have literate teachers that can correct your grammar even when teaching science, if the teacher's skilled enough to manage that sort of thing without derailing their class, sure; but makes sense to teach the subject separately, and also doesn't make sense to insist every teacher necessarily becomes an expert in also teaching English, or to even attempt it if they don't feel drawn to.)


I know what Carl Sagan was demonstrating here. "I say X now prove me wrong" is a ridiculous way to argue about something. I could just as easily say "You are making it up now YOU prove ME wrong" (which is not a scientific answer).

However, his assertion that there is no difference between believing in God and believing in invisible dragons remains that - just an assertion. One belief has a lot more adherents than the other but neither is scientifically falsifiable.


So what if a belief has lots of adherents? That contributes nothing to its truth value. That's an out-and-out argumentum ad populum.

Sure, wild religious ideas might merit discussion, in general terms, and should they be discussed at all it is good that they be discussed critically: but surely the place to do that would be in a class teaching religious studies (where such are taught), or a class dedicated to teaching critical thinking, like I was saying? Otherwise every class will end up getting derailed.

I emphasize again, it's not just history, along with science. It's practically everything. Science, and history, and literature, and civics, and religious studies (where taught), practically everything that's taught.


If you read my posts properly you will see that I am arguing the exact opposite. Beyond saying "it's unfalsifiable" there is nothing to discuss within a scientific context.


Why propose dragging it into the science class, then?


However, since Judaeo/Christian/Islamic religions are so prevalent and have so many believers, it might be worth giving Genesis a second look to see if any of it is reconcilable to scientific principles. https://answersingenesis.org/ attempts to do so and it could be quite instructive for students to examine the flaws in their reasoning but that is an aside and not something that I am advocating (I am merely distinguishing between things that are widely believed and things that almost nobody believes).


Once again, blatant argumentum ad populum. Makes no sense.

And also: why on earth just the Abrahamic religions? By that token you'd need to examine the stories of every major denomination of every religion, including the Abrahamic ones, but also the other major religions like Buddhism, and Hinduism, and Daoism, and ...well, you name it. Why just the Abrahamic religions, this makes no sense.

Like I said, critically examining these ideas isn't bad. but probably a separate critical thinking class might be good. Because this isn't about science per se, but about practically everything the kids are taught at school, in every class.
 
However, since Judaeo/Christian/Islamic religions are so prevalent and have so many believers, it might be worth giving Genesis a second look to see if any of it is reconcilable to scientific principles.

Done many times, the conclusion was and is : "gods do not exist". Deal with it.
 
I'm not falling for that trick again.


Anyway, why do you say, “again”? You don’t so far seem to have attempted to answer either question.

Your offer of “goddidit” was part of an attempt to imply that if students bring it up they are “ostracized” and “ridiculed”, and that this belief, if brought up in science lessons, shouldn’t be challenged because science should be “theologically neutral”.
 
Here it is, by the way:
Everything should be open to questions. If a student wants to bring up a "goddidit" in a science lesson then they shouldn't be ostracized nor ridiculed for doing so. An honest answer would be that there is no scientific test that would reveal the nature of the supposed intelligence behind apparently random forces. Science is (or should be) theologically neutral.


This looks suspiciously like an assertion that critical thinking should only be applied to those ideas on which science is not required to be “theologically neutral”.
 
So what if a belief has lots of adherents? That contributes nothing to its truth value. That's an out-and-out argumentum ad populum.
You are not reading me right. I said "it might be worth giving Genesis a second look". Large numbers of students are going to school with beliefs that are incompatible to what they will learn in the science room. That's a lot of people who aren't going to get much out of a science class if their beliefs aren't addressed.

However, I am only postulating this as a possible exception to the "it's unfalsifiabe - we won't waste any more time on this" rule. I am willing to accept that we don't need to deal with their beliefs at all or that we should deal with their beliefs elsewhere and leave it out of the science class room.
 

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