Should convicted Libyan terrorist have been released?

Should convicted Libyan terrorist have been released?

  • Yes. He is a dying man and we should show compassion as a result.

    Votes: 11 11.5%
  • Yes. Such are the doubts over his conviction, and given that he will die before any appeal he shoul

    Votes: 20 20.8%
  • Yes, but only under a prisoner transfer with strict rules over media access.

    Votes: 4 4.2%
  • No. Regardless of the legal considerations on the specific case, this hands a propaganda victory to

    Votes: 7 7.3%
  • No. He is legally guilty for the deaths of 270 people and should serve his sentence fully.

    Votes: 51 53.1%
  • Any other opinion, specify below!

    Votes: 3 3.1%

  • Total voters
    96
The bombing of the discotheque in West Berlin was likely done by the Mossad. After the bombing they faked Libyan intelligence to make it sound like the Libyans were responsible . This fooled the Americas and they later attacked Libya which is what Israel wanted all along. Libya later retaliated with the Pam Am bombing.

Israel started all of this.

Uh, yeah. Too bad there's no credible evidence that any Libyans were involved in this revenge. Do you embrace false positions on purpose?

Anyway, this seems as good a thread as any to rseurrect at this time. The time being the approximate three month anniversary of al Megrahi's three months to live prognosis.

Professor Black's blog today, quoting Gerald Warner, Scotland on Sunday
http://lockerbiecase.blogspot.com/2009/11/this-is-becoming-embarrassing-for.html
This is becoming embarrassing – for Scottish Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill. <snip> The problem for our Kenny is that Megrahi has not done the decent thing. This Friday will see the expiry of his supposed three-month maximum lease of life, but it looks likely he will not have shuffled off this mortal coil, as MacAskill assured us he would.

San Fran Chron
When al-Megrahi flew home to a hero's welcome in Libya, Member of Scottish Parliament Richard Baker recalls "universal outrage" among Scots at the sight of Scotland's flag "being waved to welcome home the Lockerbie bomber in Tripoli. It just turned stomachs" - and produced among sensible Scots "profound shame and embarrassment."

This attitude makes me sick. Do people not think about what they are saying? Can someone please tell me they're upset both that the guy was released alive and got a hero's welcome? I'd like to argue with you.

ETA: If you're upset he's not dead yet by this Friday, or fantasizing finishing it yourself, that's a bonus.
 
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Well, you know my opinion.

The evidence the court relied on to convict him was risible. Whether Libya had anything much to do with the PAN Am 103 attack I don't know, but the evidence that Megrahi either bought the clothes that were packed round the bomb in the suitcase, or smuggled the suitcase into the luggage system, simply should not have stood up in court. Not only that, since there was evidence beyond any reasonable doubt that wherever that suitcase went on the plane it was not in Malta, and Megrahi definitely was in Malta at the time, that looks like an alibi to me.

It is a howling shame on my country's justice system that anyone, whether or not he was an intelligence agent for a hostile regime, should have been railroaded in this way. Kangaroo court, show trial, call it what you like. I watched the coverage of the so-called "hero's welcome" live, and I was pleased that my country's flag was being waved, not burned! For goodness sake, if one of your family had been imprisoned for eight years on charges you firmly believe to be false, and then was finally released as a dying man, would you go to the airport to welcome him?

The Scotsman recently ran a piece declaring that it was a huge embarrassment to Kenny MacAskill that Megrahi hadn't had the decency to die yet. To the credit of the online readers, the subsequent comments were all highly critical of the piece. Someone asked if there was a word for journalism that had yet to aspire to reach the dizzy heights of the gutter.

So Megrahi has been having additional chemotherapy in Libya that he wan't getting in Scotland? Shame on the NHS, then. But then, there's probably more incentive for doctors to fight hard for someone who might have something left to live for, compared to someone languishing in jail far from his family. And simply being home with the family is likely to improve the short-term prognosis. What sort of ghouls are we?

I have no real idea how I'd feel about releasing a genuine terrorist who was responsible for such an atrocity in this way. Because that hasn't happened. I hope I'd try to take the compassionate view, even so. I just wish Megrahi hadn't been pressurised to drop his appeal, so that there might have been some prospect of a new investigation to find out who did do it. If that ever happens, and that person is being considered for compassionate release, ask me how I feel about it then.

Rolfe.
 
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Well, you know my opinion.

The evidence the court relied on to convict him was risible. Whether Libya had anything much to do with the PAN Am 103 attack I don't know, but the evidence that Megrahi either bought the clothes that were packed round the bomb in the suitcase, or smuggled the suitcase into the luggage system, simply should not have stood up in court. Not only that, since there was evidence beyond any reasonable doubt that wherever that suitcase went on the plane it was not in Malta, and Megrahi definitely was in Malta at the time, that looks like an alibi to me.

Oh wah! Shouldn'ta stood up or shoulda, fact is it did, he was convicted, in the castle, scales of justice, die is cast, die in gaol. It's an old game, it's the form that matters.

But No one will argue with me! They're all over the other forums I guess, and editors rooms, think tanks, and in "I don't look into things, I trust" land and so on.

Just for those of you so-inclined to get upset about Megrahi's "hero's welcome," please ask yourselves what that really means to you. It seems a lot see them cheering a killer of 270 as a hero, for that. How could so many Libyans cheer a mass murderer? Are Libyans just evil by nature? Just that anti-American? Nah, that'd be racist or something... So was Col Ghaddafi bussing them in at gun point? Mental equivalent with brainwashing propaganda, banning CNN, etc, so they beileve killing people that way is heroic?

But, see, "Lockerbie bomber" is in OUR minds (some), not necessarily theirs. And it's really more from an absence of inaccurate propaganda, which we suffer from on this side of the Lockerbie line.

Go ask the people and I bet they'll say overwhelmingly he was an innocent man, framed and jailed for life in a ridiculous politically motivated show-trial. They were happy for him and their country that he was able to at least die at home, and that other nations almost seemed to care about justice. Whatever you say about the case and conviction and his guilt, one cannot honestly say the conviction was completely sound and untarnished by scandal, inconsistency, cover-up, etc. Even if genuinely guilty, just the ambiguity of it all (reasonable doubt up the wazoo that never should have been glossed over) PLUS his (app) 3 month life span, there's no doubt in my mind he deserved the benefit of doubt, a return home, good medicine, plenty hugs, and as many months as he feels up to and can be allowed.

For God's sake, you'd think these people wanted to pester MacAskill into flying to Tripoli with that pillow and smother the guy now.

It is a howling shame on my country's justice system that anyone, whether or not he was an intelligence agent for a hostile regime, should have been railroaded in this way. Kangaroo court, show trial, call it what you like. I watched the coverage of the so-called "hero's welcome" live, and I was pleased that my country's flag was being waved, not burned!

See above - It was contextual. I'm sure plenty of them have burned plenty Scottish flags. there might still have been some in the back row that day, but clearly the prevailing mood was all this paying up and playing nice despite all the harassment was paying off - another power showed humanity to one of ours. Then they remember what he was released from and I'm sure their wave goes limper.
 
he was set up by the c. i. a.

Yeah, pretty much it seems.

It's funny watching the middle part where attention shifted from PFLP-GC to Libya. First all clues pointed to Jibril's group, paid $11 million by Iran, using a Khreesat altimeter bomb loaded at London (31,000 ft detonation), in revenge for what they felt was the intentional US shootdown of Air Iran 655 just six months earlier. It all fits, symmetrical death toll and method, transactions, timing, but can't hardly be followed through on for various reasons, and suddenly Libya enters. Secret meeting alleged, the Iran-PFLPGC plot still starts it but then hires Libya to do the actual bomb, since Khreesat's cell got busted up. So... the Libyans, stupid, stupid Libyans, decide to back their bomb with Maltese-made clothhes, bought in Malta, packed there, and inserted into the air system to PA103A, blind luck allowing, within a couple weeks. And this bomb uses one of the Swiss blabbermouth's timers, carefully set to somehow replicate what a Khreesat bomb from London would do, perhaps by pure accident, or to frame that group and draw attention to Heathrow. But this also made sure the plane blew up just around the British coast, rather than the vast hard-to-miss target zone of the friggin ATLANTIC. So, all these neat blabbermouth-bought-from Maltese clothes, blabbermouth-bought-from timer fragment, etc. are FOUND at Lockerbie, with routine (but oddly delayed and rerouted) luggage records at Frankfurt (but nothing at Malta) pointing to Malta as well. and lead right to Libya and people are PATTING THEMSELVES ON THE BACK for busting this case?

Scooby Doo grade material, at best. It was old man Megrahi all along!

So who's mad now? Real killers never brought to justice, etc.? JREF at large, you're too smart to argue this point. That's a plus for you all. :thumbsup:
 
I wish someone would come and argue the "Megrahi did it" case. It would give us some specific points to discuss. To my mind, though, it's a done deal.
  • Whoever bought the clothes, it wasn't Megrahi - too young, not tall enough, and not the right build.
  • Wherever the bomb was put on board, it wasn't Malta. And Megrahi was on Malta on 21st December 1988.
  • Giaka was making stuff up to keep the CIA happy (and paying him money and keeping him in their witness protection programme).
The rest of the evidence was candy-floss - Megrahi's association with Bollier, which never extended to showing he'd ever had possession of an MST-13 timer, and Fhimah's diary, which said something about luggage tags in the context of a name that might have been Abdelbaset but might have been something else, which had an innocent explanation, and anyway, if you were a terrorist, would you write incriminating stuff in your diary, then leave it lying around and hand it over to the authorities quite willingly more than a year later?

If Megrahi didn't do it, and it wasn't done at Luqa, this throws everything back in the melting pot, but it still doesn't exonerate Libya. Maybe it was some other Libyans who completely evaded detection. Maybe.

But the timeline of the shifting of the blame is odd, and gradual, and inconsistent. The press reports blaming Libya started coming out in late 1989. Saddam Hussein didn't invade Kuwait until the summer of 1990, and the USA didn't go after him for this until early 1991. The indictments were later in 1991.

Some people have said the indictments were too late to be motivated by the desire to appease Syria and Iran, but the indictments were only the culmination of a process that had been going on possibly since March 1989, which actually seems too early to be consitent with that motivation.

From about March 1989 there seems to have been official policy to downplay the PFLP-GC angle, but it kept resurfacing anyway, probably because the circumstantial evidence was too strong. (However, they may have been barking up one particular wrong tree which put a spanner in the works. Because baggage container AVE4041 contained no luggage belonging to passengers who had begun their journey at Heathrow, and most of the luggage in it was from Frankfurt, the investigation ignored the possibility of a clandestine introduction at Heathrow and concentrated on Frankfurt.)

Only after August 1989, when the Frankfurt police finally handed over the Erac printout of the PA103A loading records, did the Malta connection surface as a serious proposition. This culminated in the first interview with Gauci, in September 1989. Gauci believed the mystery shopper to be Libyan, and I think that's when the focus really shifted. I think the French newspaper report in September 1989 was the first public blaming of Libya, and English newspapers joined in about December.

Nevertheless, the FAI (which happened in 1990) was still all about the PFLP-GC, as if the legal process hadn't really caught up with changing theories. It wasn't that concerned with who put the bomb on board anyway, more with how it happened. (The legal justification for holding the FAI was the the Pan Am flight crew were at work when they died, and they were in Scotland when they died, which made holding an enquiry into work-related fatalities mandatory.)

So the changing focus from Syria to Libya happened well before the MST-13 fragment was identified in June 1990. It seems to have been the Erac printout followed by Gauci's testimony which really drove the shift in emphasis.

I can see why Marquise keeps saying, "it's the evidence, stupid". But it's evidence pointing to Libya, not evidence pointing to Megrahi, that he's talking about. The evidence pointing to Megrahi is tissue paper. In a typhoon. However, if he's the only Libyan who could be linked with the incident in any way at all, is that telling in itself?

You know, this is beginning to make some twisted sort of sense, and it's in entirely the wrong thread, sorry.

Rolfe.
 
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I think the French newspaper report in September 1989 was the first public blaming of Libya, and English newspapers joined in about December.


Sorry, that was 1990, not 1989. Doesn't really change what I was saying though.

Rolfe.
 

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