Should Bert and Ernie Marry on Sesame Street?

[sadhatter]

No it's a good point. Since you brought it up I've been thinking about the Coyote trying to murder the Road Runner. (not surprisingly that has been discussed and people wonder if it would still pass the screeners)

Still, good point or not, I don't think people are going to accept it, especially in the US. They've got some funny social concepts; some of the raunchiest porn on the planet, extreme violence on a routine basis, but don't show a nipple!

Don't look for and expect to find logical consistency in US (not that it's exclusive to the US)

But then it is a might makes right situation. People who don't like it are loud and have money, so lets not rock the boat.

This is exactly the kind of thing the lessons from Robin hood, Et al. teach us to fight against.

People are clinging to the notion that people will be ****** off, but how many people would be losing their **** over the fact that a series as beloved and ongoing as SS would be cancelled?

It would cause a stir, but a stir is what is needed. Or in another 15 years , the gay or bi kid growing up today is going to be telling the same sad tale that i have, of wishing that like the disabled kids, the black kids, the fat kids, the weak kids, the kids with braces ( among many others), he had a show telling him it was all right to be who he was, and not to feel ashamed.

I mean really, how much traction would an anti SS group possibly get? They would be attacking an institution of children's television, to anyone but the far , far right wing, they would come off as grinch like. And PBS doesn't run on advertising funds, but donations, any they lose from people who would drop support due to this, they would gain from other organizations and people who do support it.

That being said, it is my personal opinion they are not gay. And that the fact that they come off as gay, would make a great contrast if they brought in two legitimately gay characters ( really, would they have to be puppets? There were quite a few humans in the show last time i watched, which was 5 years ago, after i couldn't sleep for 3 days because i drank a bottle of cough syrup i didn't know had dm in it , to help a case of strep throat. ). That being said though, i am not a SS writer, and they are the ones who decide who is what. Not our personal guesses at the preferences of puppets.

 

[sadhatter]

This whole debate raises an issue i would like to comment on.

To a certain subset of people, who may even be able to be called liberal, to a certain extent homosexuality is like swearing. Something that adults do, and that you wouldn't fault them for, but something that is to be avoided promoting to kids.

And this bothers me, quite a bit actually.

It should not be treated like swearing, it should be treated like having braces, or being really tall, being short, having a funny voice, or any of the dozens of other groups of people who get picked on for just being what they are, and are mentioned constantly in children's fiction.

I don't know how many times i have said this in my life, but being gay , or bi, ( or straight for that matter) as a kid has nothing to do with sex. Chances are the kids don't even know what sex is, but they do know about affection, and at that age, affection is pretty much all that there is to it.

 

[RandFan]

It should not be treated like swearing, it should be treated like having braces, or being really tall, being short, having a funny voice, or any of the dozens of other groups of people who get picked on for just being what they are, and are mentioned constantly in children's fiction.

I don't know how many times i have said this in my life, but being gay , or bi, ( or straight for that matter) as a kid has nothing to do with sex. Chances are the kids don't even know what sex is, but they do know about affection, and at that age, affection is pretty much all that there is to it.

QFT.

 

[sadhatter]

QFT.

You know, i hate netspeak, in general and always assumed that QFT, meant quit ******* talking.

Now that i have googled it, i will say thank you, lol.

 

[Cavemonster]

I have never said that. You are confusing me with someone else. I think you might have reading comrehension problems - you suspected me of not having children even though in the post you responded to I clearly said I have a daughter, and now this.

Please explain yourself.

Edit - After reading the thread I see you confused me with someone else. Next time if we debate, please read all of the post that you intend to reply to.

Apologies, I was pursuing a conversation with Furcifer at the same time and got the two of you mixed up.

 

[Furcifer]

I mean really, how much traction would an anti SS group possibly get?

In my opinion, a lot. Especially in the US. That's why I said in Canada where it's legal might be a good place to start.

In the US, like I said, it isn't legal everywhere. I could see a lot of people in states where it isn't legal complaining and getting the show pulled for the reasons I mentioned.

Bert and Ernie aren't a family. Whether it's fair or not people are going to say straight couples represent a family and gay couples don't. That's going to gain some traction.

Third, people aren't going to like you messing with Bert and Ernie just the way they are; two guys that live together in a happy somewhat co dependent relationship

Fourth, it's political and adult. That doesn't mean kids can't get it, but a lot of people just won't think it's appropriate for kids.

Finally, look at the poll results here. This place is pretty liberal and there's still a large group of people that don't think it's a good idea. It's not going to go over very well in conservative homes. Katy Perry was fully clothed and only a guest and she created quite a stir. B and E coming out is going to be that much bigger.

It sure would be interesting though. I'm just not sure SS is the place to do it. Try the Electric Company maybe.

 

[Furcifer]

Separated at birth

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

I've always thought that the muppets in Sesame Street were supposed to be children. Or child-like at least. I think that if Sesame Street wants to address gay marriage they should do it with a human couple.

Bert & Ernie are roommates. I think a lot of us have had roommates before that we wanted to throttle. Learning how to live and like someone you aren't related to, or don't think of romantically, or are significantly different from is something we should all learn how to do. Bert & Ernie are that couple on Sesame Street. Granted, it's been 40 years you'd think they'd want their own place by now but who am I to judge?

I agree. I always thought of the Sesame Street muppets (unlike the Jim Henson muppets from the Muppet Show) as being child like themselves, especially in light of the fact that when shown sleeping, they almost all sleep with some sort of toy (I believe Bert has a Teddy Bear, and Ernie has a rubber ducky) and they regularly play children's games like dress up, and particularly after the wonderful Sesame Street movie "Follow that Bird" in which Big Bird is forcibly put into Foster Care and adopted out to a bird family.
None of them seem to have jobs or real responsibilities the way the adult humans do (though how they get money to pay for cost of living seems a mystery).

As such, I don't see them being in romantic couples, whether gay or straight. I always just thought of Bert and Ernie as "odd couple" type of room mates, the lesson being that people who are very different can still be friends and get along.

I agree that it would seem more appropriate, if they want to deal with homosexuality, to do so with a human rather than muppet couple.

 

[sadhatter]

In my opinion, a lot. Especially in the US. That's why I said in Canada where it's legal might be a good place to start.

In the US, like I said, it isn't legal everywhere. I could see a lot of people in states where it isn't legal complaining and getting the show pulled for the reasons I mentioned.

Bert and Ernie aren't a family. Whether it's fair or not people are going to say straight couples represent a family and gay couples don't. That's going to gain some traction.

Third, people aren't going to like you messing with Bert and Ernie just the way they are; two guys that live together in a happy somewhat co dependent relationship

Fourth, it's political and adult. That doesn't mean kids can't get it, but a lot of people just won't think it's appropriate for kids.

Finally, look at the poll results here. This place is pretty liberal and there's still a large group of people that don't think it's a good idea. It's not going to go over very well in conservative homes. Katy Perry was fully clothed and only a guest and she created quite a stir. B and E coming out is going to be that much bigger.

It sure would be interesting though. I'm just not sure SS is the place to do it. Try the Electric Company maybe.

All you posted was why they would be ****** off, no one is denying nutbars will be ****** off, but when the station makes money from donations not advertising, they sway of big pocketbooks is diminished. And for every person or organization that is to leave, they would be able to find another , from the gay community to replace them. That is what makes public television so great, the lack of influence from political groups.

As i said, there is tons of children's fiction current and past about breaking laws that are unjust, so that just doesn't hold water.

Sure they will be ****** off, but just as many people, if not more will be ****** off that they are trying to destroy an institution of children's television that has been around for decades.

Characters evolve, different writers take them in different directions, and ideas and characters get updated for the times, ( TMNT is a great example. ) to say that this update is any more wrong than the inclusion of single mothers, or visible minorities in television shows, is simply silly. A few decades ago people were saying the same thing about showing single parent families on t.v., it would warp the kids, it would encourage all kinds of debauchery, the screamed, they yelled, they boycotted, and in the end they lost. Just like they would lose if they tried the same thing now.

Look at the lines of people waiting in the freeing cold, or going to less than legal places to buy a tickle me elmo a few years back. They were willing to go through hell to give money , you don't think these same kind of folks, years later, as the world is a bit more accepting, wouldn't rally against the bigots and the loudmouths?

As much as i hate to put it this way, gay lobbyists hold more and more sway, they a large and vocal group, and have many allies among the straights, and even the religious. If this was a show on fox, or another non public network, i could see your point. But this isn't, this is public television, and that means for everyone, not just right wing morons. Their money comes from, as they say , people like you. And at this point in time, there is more people like me , than people like them.

Not doing something because your afraid of backlash is called cowardice, and the longer people are cowards, bending over for the small minded, small percentage of society, the longer it is going to take, and the harder it is going to be to set things right.

 

[ZirconBlue]

None of them seem to have jobs or real responsibilities the way the adult humans do (though how they get money to pay for cost of living seems a mystery).

Sesame Street is an anarcho-syndicalist commune.

 

[Nursedan]

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/customavatars/avatar16648_18.gif[/qimg] [qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/customavatars/avatar38966_1.gif[/qimg]

Separated at birth

 

[marksman]

None of them seem to have jobs or real responsibilities the way the adult humans do (though how they get money to pay for cost of living seems a mystery).

Gordon's a science teacher. Bob is a music teacher. Susan is a nurse. Alan is a grocer. Angela runs a day-care. Nitya runs a laudromat. Luis runs a repair shop. Linda is a librarian. And someone runs a diner.

They talk about their jobs all the time.

The muppets -- who are magical creatures -- don't appear to have jobs. (Though Abby Cadabby is apparently a fairy godmother in training.)

 

[The Shrike]

You know, i hate netspeak, in general and always assumed that QFT, meant quit ******* talking.

Now that i have googled it, i will say thank you, lol.

You could've shared it with the rest of us squares so I didn't have to look it up.

"quoted for truth"

 

[ZirconBlue]

Gordon's a science teacher. Bob is a music teacher. Susan is a nurse. Alan is a grocer. Angela runs a day-care. Nitya runs a laudromat. Luis runs a repair shop. Linda is a librarian. And someone runs a diner.

They talk about their jobs all the time.

The muppets -- who are magical creatures -- don't appear to have jobs. (Though Abby Cadabby is apparently a fairy godmother in training.)

The muppets use the humans as slave labor.

 

[sadhatter]

You could've shared it with the rest of us squares so I didn't have to look it up.

"quoted for truth"

I feel like one of you squares at the moment, i have honestly rolled my eyes and wondered why someone would be so ******* rude, as to bust that out when we were having a pleasant conversation, many times, and never replied due to this.

I can't believe on a day when i am absolutely flying from cold meds ( bad cold, and dm kicks me in the face big time, but i need it.) i finally figured this one out.

I mean what are the chances a 3 letter combo, let alone one that has a friggen Q in it, could mean, in essence " that is a good point. " or " what are you a ******* idiot?" , both making sense using the letters provided.

 

[Furcifer]

Not doing something because your afraid of backlash is called cowardice, and the longer people are cowards, bending over for the small minded, small percentage of society, the longer it is going to take, and the harder it is going to be to set things right.

To what ends though? What does making Bert and Ernie officially gay do? It seems like a political platforming instead of educating children on a children's education program.

I'd add just because people don't complain about Cookie Monster stealing cookies, doesn't mean people won't complain about same sex marriages being portrayed as "legal" in areas where the program is shown. The FCC is federal and I don't think it's going to matter where the program is made, just where it's shown.

I don't think it's cowardice for a children's program to limit their programming to children's issues and not adult ones. Unfortunately while gay marriage may affect both, it's still an adult issue. Drinking and using drugs, even abortio affects kids, probably more so than adults, but it's still not appropriate to put on Sesame Street. I think it might require a format change it it's going to get political. Until it's resolved across the US you'd be hard pressed to say it's not a political issue.

 

[sadhatter]

To what ends though? What does making Bert and Ernie officially gay do? It seems like a political platforming instead of educating children on a children's education program.

I'd add just because people don't complain about Cookie Monster stealing cookies, doesn't mean people won't complain about same sex marriages being portrayed as "legal" in areas where the program is shown. The FCC is federal and I don't think it's going to matter where the program is made, just where it's shown.

I don't think it's cowardice for a children's program to limit their programming to children's issues and not adult ones. Unfortunately while gay marriage may affect both, it's still an adult issue. Drinking and using drugs, even abortio affects kids, probably more so than adults, but it's still not appropriate to put on Sesame Street. I think it might require a format change it it's going to get political. Until it's resolved across the US you'd be hard pressed to say it's not a political issue.

But it is not political, did you not read my post in which i recanted my childhood experience of desperately wanting something , some form of television show that portrayed that what i was was okay.

A huge part of children's programing is about inclusion, do you think it is a coincidence that most disney films have a cast of characters that not only range personality types, but hell, even species? Do you not notice how every single kids show has at least one episode in which even the villian gets to partake in some adventure with the main characters? Ever watch ninja friggen turtles? Extreme ghost busters? This concept is ham fistedly put into every single kids show on the face of the earth.

But you know who is missing? Among the fat characters, the tall characters, the disabled characters, the visible minority characters, the weak characters, the nerdy characters, the academically struggling characters? The gay character.

In a wheelchair? No problem. Fat, be proud of yourself. Nerdy? You have a great future ahead of you. Gay? Don't talk about it till your older.

That is the problem, not PC'ing up a kids show. For the love of kord man, do you think everyone realizes they are gay in their mid 30's? No , a good portion of kids know this, and know it early ( or in my case, not gay, but bi.) , and are left wondering why they, out of all the kinds of people out there are conspicuously left out. Do you have any idea at all what this is like? Wouldn't you do what you could to make sure kids don't feel this way?

This hasn't anything to do with sex, this is no more than adding a single parent family in a show was 20 years ago, something that is reasonable, necessary, and long friggen overdue.

 

[catsmate]

Should Bert and Ernie Marry on Sesame Street?

Yes, if only for the howls of outrage.

 

[Furcifer]

But it is not political, did you not read my post in which i recanted my childhood experience of desperately wanting something , some form of television show that portrayed that what i was was okay.

A huge part of children's programing is about inclusion, do you think it is a coincidence that most disney films have a cast of characters that not only range personality types, but hell, even species? Do you not notice how every single kids show has at least one episode in which even the villian gets to partake in some adventure with the main characters? Ever watch ninja friggen turtles? Extreme ghost busters? This concept is ham fistedly put into every single kids show on the face of the earth.

But you know who is missing? Among the fat characters, the tall characters, the disabled characters, the visible minority characters, the weak characters, the nerdy characters, the academically struggling characters? The gay character.

In a wheelchair? No problem. Fat, be proud of yourself. Nerdy? You have a great future ahead of you. Gay? Don't talk about it till your older.

That is the problem, not PC'ing up a kids show. For the love of kord man, do you think everyone realizes they are gay in their mid 30's? No , a good portion of kids know this, and know it early ( or in my case, not gay, but bi.) , and are left wondering why they, out of all the kinds of people out there are conspicuously left out. Do you have any idea at all what this is like? Wouldn't you do what you could to make sure kids don't feel this way?

This hasn't anything to do with sex, this is no more than adding a single parent family in a show was 20 years ago, something that is reasonable, necessary, and long friggen overdue.

Yes, but TV programming doesn't end at SS. The Simpsons do a great job of tackling social issues, at 8PM. If SS wants to move into that arena they're going to have to change their time slot and demographic (by my estimate).

 

[The Shrike]

This hasn't anything to do with sex, this is no more than adding a single parent family in a show was 20 years ago, something that is reasonable, necessary, and long friggen overdue.

Sorry if I've lost this in the fray . . . I agree with you that such role models are needed. Do you agree with my assessment that it doesn't matter if we know for sure Bert and Ernie are gay? They are two guys, living together and being a family of their own. Does the young gay/bi/curious kid only get the message if the show is explicit that the characters are, in fact, in a loving homosexual relationship (even if we <thank god> never see their muppet sex acts)?

What if nothing was ever said about them being gay but they adopted a puppy together? Would that emphasize the construct of a "family" in a meaningful way?

BTW, has no one really mentioned Tinkie Winkie (Teletubbies) in this thread?