Should be life support of a dead pregnant woman be terminated?

[catsmate]

On 03DEC an unnamed woman was declared dead in a hospital in Dublin; however as she was pregnant (~18 weeks) doctors refused to terminate life support due to the provisions of the Eighth Amendment to the Irish Constitution. The hospital and the Health Service Executive too the matter to the High Court for a decision on the legality of terminating life support, with submissions from layers representing the hospital, the woman, her family and the fetus.

Lawyers for the Health Service Executive told the High Court that the HSE's position was that based on the medical evidence to be called, there was no reasonable prospect of the unborn child being born alive if life support measures were continued and that discontinuance of life support was lawful in the circumstances of this case.

Lawyers for the woman's father said the Eighth Amendment, dealing with the equal rights to life of the mother and the unborn child, did not apply in this case, as the unborn was of such a young gestational age when the mother died that it could not be viable.

Several specialists in intensive care medicine have stated that the woman was "not alive at any level" and that maintenance of life support was not feasible for a long period of time, with one saying that the unborn child would need to be brought to around 32 weeks' gestation and he did not believe that was possible.

Lawyers for the unborn child said they agreed this case was not about abortion but about what was practicable to vindicate the rights of the unborn child. The Senior Counsel said the mother's right to life was no longer engaged as she was dead. He she may have a residual right to dignity in death but the right to life of the unborn child would take precedence over that right.


The High Court will deliver it's ruling at midday today, which will undoubtedly be immediately appealed to the Supreme Court.

Media links.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/1224/668781-high-court-pregnancy/
http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/1226/668994-high-court-to-rule-on-pregnant-woman-case/
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crim...-prospect-unborn-viable-court-hears-1.2048425

 

[cullennz]

Would asume it should be down to the wishes of the next of kin

 

[Primus]

Would asume it should be down to the wishes of the next of kin

You'd assume right if you were anywhere other than Ireland.

 

[cullennz]

Fair point

 

[Shiner]

<snipped>
Lawyers for the Health Service Executive told the High Court that the HSE's position was that based on the medical evidence to be called, there was no reasonable prospect of the unborn child being born alive if life support measures were continued and that discontinuance of life support was lawful in the circumstances of this case.

I don't understand how it went past that.

It seems an expensive and futile exercise.

Who started proceedings?

 

[Shiner]

You'd assume right if you were anywhere other than Ireland.

Can you elaborate please? Is this about God?

 

[Primus]

Can you elaborate please? Is this about God?

Ireland still has a real hangover from when the Catholic Church had a massive say in running the country. They have it enshrined in law that a foetus's life is as important as the mothers. A huge number of people fly to the Uk for abortions every year as they are illegal in Ireland. Recently a woman having complications needed an abortion to save her life. It was refused and she died. They have forced a pregnant woman who had cancer to come off chemotherapy and refused her an abortion so she could continue, she died.
This really isn't surprising behaviour by the authorities by any measure.

 

[catsmate]

Would asume it should be down to the wishes of the next of kin

I don't understand how it went past that.

It seems an expensive and futile exercise.

Who started proceedings?

Can you elaborate please? Is this about God?

I suggest you click on the wiki link regarding the Eighth Amendment in my opening post.

 

[catsmate]

The High Court has ruled: doctors may terminate life support treatments for the corpse of the pregnant woman as there is no reasonable prospect her child will survive.
Interestingly it appears there will not be an appeal.

Irish Times.
RTE.

 

[casebro]

In the thread about Sandra the orangutan getting some legal rights, I liked that country's use of the concept 'sentient being'. In that case they applied it to a primate, but it is one good place to draw the line for abortion.

 

[Primus]

In the thread about Sandra the orangutan getting some legal rights, I liked that country's use of the concept 'sentient being'. In that case they applied it to a primate, but it is one good place to draw the line for abortion.

I might be reading this wrong but are you saying the you agree with the Irish governments abortion laws that have resulted in the preventable deaths of multiple women?

 

[Primus]

At least common sense prevailed in this case. I do think as admirable as it is the NHS providing free abortions for Irish citizens is probably one the things preventing laws being changed in Ireland. A lot of people won't really campaign for something when they know they can already take a 30m plane journey across the channel. Of course that doesn't help people who can't travel like the ladies I mentioned earlier who are unfortunately left to die for someone else's religious beliefs.

 

[Caper]

On 03DEC an unnamed woman was declared dead in a hospital in Dublin; however as she was pregnant (~18 weeks) doctors refused to terminate life support due to the provisions of the Eighth Amendment to the Irish Constitution. The hospital and the Health Service Executive too the matter to the High Court for a decision on the legality of terminating life support, with submissions from layers representing the hospital, the woman, her family and the fetus.

Lawyers for the Health Service Executive told the High Court that the HSE's position was that based on the medical evidence to be called, there was no reasonable prospect of the unborn child being born alive if life support measures were continued and that discontinuance of life support was lawful in the circumstances of this case.

Lawyers for the woman's father said the Eighth Amendment, dealing with the equal rights to life of the mother and the unborn child, did not apply in this case, as the unborn was of such a young gestational age when the mother died that it could not be viable.

Several specialists in intensive care medicine have stated that the woman was "not alive at any level" and that maintenance of life support was not feasible for a long period of time, with one saying that the unborn child would need to be brought to around 32 weeks' gestation and he did not believe that was possible.

Lawyers for the unborn child said they agreed this case was not about abortion but about what was practicable to vindicate the rights of the unborn child. The Senior Counsel said the mother's right to life was no longer engaged as she was dead. He she may have a residual right to dignity in death but the right to life of the unborn child would take precedence over that right.


The High Court will deliver it's ruling at midday today, which will undoubtedly be immediately appealed to the Supreme Court.

Media links.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/1224/668781-high-court-pregnancy/
http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/1226/668994-high-court-to-rule-on-pregnant-woman-case/
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crim...-prospect-unborn-viable-court-hears-1.2048425

It's a pretty complicated question for me. But in some cases yes I do. Especially in farther along pregnancies. Not really in early on pregnancies.


People's opinion is largely shaped on whether they value life in the womb... or how much value they put on it. I think life begins in the womb and at some point in the womb it deserves protection. Others don't share that opinion at all, so their opinion will differ from mine.

 

[Primus]

It's a pretty complicated question for me. But in some cases yes I do. Especially in farther along pregnancies. Not really in early on pregnancies.


People's opinion is largely shaped on whether they value life in the womb... or how much value they put on it. I think life begins in the womb and at some point in the womb it deserves protection. Others don't share that opinion at all, so their opinion will differ from mine.

A lot of it is shaped by how much you value the life of the mother as well. As I've pointed out the Irish authorities have let women die rather than have an abortion before.

 

[Loss Leader]

The High Court has ruled: doctors may terminate life support treatments for the corpse of the pregnant woman as there is no reasonable prospect her child will survive.
Interestingly it appears there will not be an appeal.

Glad to hear the decision. Not surprised they won't appeal as the hospital administration has now sufficiently covered it's ***.

Similar case in the US ended when doctors showed that the fetus would at best be extremely disabled and unlikely to live very long in infancy.

 

[catsmate]

Glad to hear the decision. Not surprised they won't appeal as the hospital administration has now sufficiently covered it's ***.

Actually it was counsel for the unborn who were expected to take it to the Supreme Court. There were four sets of lawyers involved.

Similar case in the US ended when doctors showed that the fetus would at best be extremely disabled and unlikely to live very long in infancy.

Which in Ireland would justify maintaining life support.

Interestingly someone finally raised the discrepancy in the Irish and English language versions of the Constitutional text. I've been expecting that to cause trouble for decades.

 

[enjoytheview]

*sigh* in any country other than Ireland (or the US, as already mentioned) this would never go to court.

The most likely scenario in trying to keep a foetus alive using ~16 weeks of life support for a deceased mother is that the dead lady's body just becomes riddled with bacterial and fungal infections, she no longer has an immune system to fight said infections so they progress until you get a septicaemia (blood infection) and it then travels to the foetus who will most likely die.

It would be an expensive, futile and stupid exercise. I'm glad the court has ruled accordingly.

 

[Strawberry]

At least common sense prevailed in this case. I do think as admirable as it is the NHS providing free abortions for Irish citizens is probably one the things preventing laws being changed in Ireland. A lot of people won't really campaign for something when they know they can already take a 30m plane journey across the channel. Of course that doesn't help people who can't travel like the ladies I mentioned earlier who are unfortunately left to die for someone else's religious beliefs.

The NHS does not provide free abortions for Irish people. The women who travel to Britain to terminate their pregnancies do so as private patients and pay for it.

 

[Shiner]

Ireland still has a real hangover from when the Catholic Church had a massive say in running the country. They have it enshrined in law that a foetus's life is as important as the mothers. A huge number of people fly to the Uk for abortions every year as they are illegal in Ireland. Recently a woman having complications needed an abortion to save her life. It was refused and she died. They have forced a pregnant woman who had cancer to come off chemotherapy and refused her an abortion so she could continue, she died.
This really isn't surprising behaviour by the authorities by any measure.

Thanks. I remember those cases you mention.

I suggest you click on the wiki link regarding the Eighth Amendment in my opening post.

I missed that. Thanks.

Catholic empathy knows no bounds.

 

[fuelair]

Can you elaborate please? Is this about God?

Of course, Ireland is still in the grip of dead and very, very evil religion.*



Sorry, but the laundries and orphanages are on that little list I have mentioned on occasion. I neither forgive nor forget the all too many things of that nature.