Should atheism be considered a movement?

This suggests that the purpose of life is to pass on genes, to perpetuate itself. That's an idea put forward and accepted by a lot of people these days. I'm not going to say that it's wrong, but I will say that it is basically asserting that the purpose of life is to obey the laws of physics. If that's correct, then we are all doing a fine job of it, but no one is doing any better job than anyone else.

Some people think there is a different purpose, whether or not they know what it is.

More to come...must go to work.
It's really a stretch to go from purpose of life (considered a human choice) to purpose being to obey physics. If you are meaning to make the argument of no free will, I find that to be a meaningless thing to ponder though I don't discount the value other people have in pondering the free will question. It just seems like it cannot be answered whether you make it on grounds of the natural Universe or a god controlled universe.

So I prefer to act on the premise I have free will and not give it anymore thought.

But the idea I need a purpose the way you are using the term is a false premise. I have a goal of the things I'd like to do while I'm here. It is a simple matter and requires no more attention than that.
 
You said:
What did I incorrectly interpret? Please point it out.
When I asked you:
you said:
You went on:
If anyone is responsible for you being "misunderstood", you can only blame yourself.
Then, go with what I post: Provide examples of where you think I defend god beliefs.
No, I don't. Provide examples of where you think I do.
I don't.
Neither do I.
Neither do I.
I do. All the evidence points to it existing.
Think about what you are saying here (and, no, I didn't misunderstand you). ...
Why is it you ignored all the things I posted here about how you misunderstood what I said? Since I said it would be my last word on the above matter, I will only recopy it for you. I will address your misunderstanding of my analogies in a later post.
...when you post your unique interpretation of what was said, and the person who wrote the post says to you, you are misinterpreting what was said, this is where communication breaks down with you. Instead of taking into consideration that you have indeed not understood the connotation of the post, you insist that your interpretation could not possibly have been incorrect and you proceed to badger people, insisting you know what they said despite their trying to correct your misinterpretation.

Even if a person wrote an unclear thought or made some literal error that could be argued on a pedantic basis, most people recognize that this is a common problem when trying to communicate. And it is made even worse when communicating on a forum where extra cues such as body language and intonation are absent, replaced by smilies sometimes added to overcome the limitation of communicating only verbally.

Most people understand this communication difficulty and when it occurs most people try to understand what the person was saying by the correction or clarification. In addition, we've probably 'all' been guilty of using absolute terms like "all" and "every" on occasions when such a term was inappropriately applied. When called on these kind of pedantic errors, it is duly noted but hardly ever would become some bone of contention in the post as opposed to being recognized as just a casual poor choice of words.

You seem unwilling to consider that what the person was trying to communicate is more important that what you at first concluded they were saying.

And I can even tell you what you are going to say to this post that is trying to help you communicate better with people. You are going to put up a mental block to the possibility you do not interpret posts as the message is written. You will not allow yourself to consider the possibility you don't get what people mean when you apply your unique interpretation to what they say. You will brush this off as some personal attack when in reality it is a sincere attempt to share with you an observation about the constant arguments you get into with people when a discussion would be so much more productive.

And then if you are true to form, you will repeat your question that is based on your unique interpretation of what I posted and ignore my attempt to clarify what I intended to communicate. Despite how what I posted may or may not have communicated that thought, it should be clear by my follow up reply to your misinterpretation what I intended to communicate. I'll repeat that again just for the record.

A movement as you are using the word implies organization, maybe plans, maybe rules, some structure. The OP used the language "a movement". I used the language, "a movement" because it was used in the OP. But I also used the language, "would like". "Would" in my sentence is a future subjunctive verb. A future subjunctive verb is used to communicate feelings such as wishfulness or imagination, not things that are currently real or true. "Like" obviously denotes a preference, again, it is not a statement declaring that a critical thinking movement exists or what the specifics of such a movement 'would' be.

And in addition, your question implies all sorts of things not communicated at all in my post. That is where you slip into straw men. You are attributing things to my statement based on your unique interpretation of what I said. Repeating what I said does not change the meaning of what I intended to communicate. It merely reflects on your inability or unwillingness to consider you are not interpreting the statement in a typical way.

You are adding things to my statement which are not there. You are ignoring the future subjunctive verb and interpreting only my use of the OP language in my post. But that future subjunctive verb, "would like", changes the meaning of the sentence. It negates the literal meaning of the language of the OP and instead changes the meaning of the sentence to one of imagining something more nebulous in this case.
I should also note that my prediction that you would reply ignoring everything in this post was correct.
 
I'm confident that's not it.



What you are talking about is moral relativism, that morality is defined with respect to the values of a culture. A lot of people reject that notion, saying that there are certain things that are inherently evil, whether or not a given society recognizes them as evil. This idea, of absolute good or evil is not a scientific notion. I'm calling it a religious idea, because it must be accepted on faith, or simply because it "feels right".
[snip]
This doesn't change my view but your world view is duly noted. I don't share it but our differences are more semantic and philosophical than substantive except for the value you seem to have applied to god beliefs that I find irrelevant to the things you describe. Not much reason to add anything else as I have already posted my view.
 
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Why is it you ignored all the things I posted here about how you misunderstood what I said? Since I said it would be my last word on the above matter, I will only recopy it for you. I will address your misunderstanding of my analogies in a later post.I should also note that my prediction that you would reply ignoring everything in this post was correct.

You posted that after I asked the question about who was allowed in your movement. So I did not "misunderstand" you.

You do this again and again: Add to/explain away/change what you said earlier, and then claim that I originally misunderstood you. It is a thoroughly dishonest debating tactic.

Can you provide examples of where you think I defend god beliefs - or not?

Can you provide examples of where you think I challenge that the principle in science of not being able to prove the negative is not all that relevant to god beliefs - or not?

You are saying that one of the four fundamental forces does not exist. Do you realize what that means? The whole field of physics collapses.

Do you want to rethink that one?

What gave you the idea that we can't prove the theory of gravity because we cannot test gravity in every location within the universe?
 
With all due respect, CFLarsen, I think you really did misunderstand Skeptigirl's point about gravity. I think it was a problem of punctuation. She said
skeptigirl said:
I don't say gravity exists but I can't prove the theory because I cannot test gravity in every location within the Universe.

You have chosen to punctuate this as: " I don't say gravity exists, but I can't prove it...."
I think it should properly be rendered as: "I don't say, "gravity exists, but I can't prove it..."
That makes better sense in the context, and I honestly think you did misunderstand the point.

ETA. Reading that I am not sure it is any clearer. What I am trying to say is that I read Skeptigirl's sentence to mean she believes gravity exists and she does not feel a need to acknowledge this is not absolutely provable every time she mentions it:but in the case of religion this seems to be demanded of her and she does not see the difference. You seem to have read it to mean she does not think gravity exists, while acknowledging she cannot prove that

If I am wrong, Skeptigirl, please forgive my intervention and correct me
 
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With all due respect, CFLarsen, I think you really did misunderstand Skeptigirl's point about gravity. I think it was a problem of punctuation. She said

You have chosen to punctuate this as: " I don't say gravity exists, but I can't prove it...."
I think it should properly be rendered as: "I don't say, "gravity exists, but I can't prove it..."
That makes better sense in the context, and I honestly think you did misunderstand the point.

ETA. Reading that I am not sure it is any clearer. What I am trying to say is that I read Skeptigirl's sentence to mean she believes gravity exists and she does not feel a need to acknowledge this is not absolutely provable every time she mentions it:but in the case of religion this seems to be demanded of her and she does not see the difference. You seem to have read it to mean she does not think gravity exists, while acknowledging she cannot prove that

If I am wrong, Skeptigirl, please forgive my intervention and correct me

Look at what she says right above:

I don't say, 'evolution theory isn't certain', because I don't seek to prove a theory in science.

You see the quotes? If she forgot the quotes around 'gravity exists but I can't prove it', then it was her mistake, not mine.

However, look at her follow up sentence: "because I cannot test gravity in every location within the Universe".

That is pure rubbish, and reveals a profound misunderstanding of science.
 
With all due respect, CFLarsen, I think you really did misunderstand Skeptigirl's point about gravity. I think it was a problem of punctuation. She said


You have chosen to punctuate this as: " I don't say gravity exists, but I can't prove it...."
I think it should properly be rendered as: "I don't say, "gravity exists, but I can't prove it..."
That makes better sense in the context, and I honestly think you did misunderstand the point.

ETA. Reading that I am not sure it is any clearer. What I am trying to say is that I read Skeptigirl's sentence to mean she believes gravity exists and she does not feel a need to acknowledge this is not absolutely provable every time she mentions it:but in the case of religion this seems to be demanded of her and she does not see the difference. You seem to have read it to mean she does not think gravity exists, while acknowledging she cannot prove that

If I am wrong, Skeptigirl, please forgive my intervention and correct me
Help is always appreciated when confusion occurs over statements.

Of course gravity exists and of course there is overwhelming evidence. But in science "theories" are not statements of fact. They are descriptions of what the best evidence supports. The "law of gravity" is a mathematical statement. The "theory" of gravity is a scientific term and theories are not the same as laws. We don't speak of the theory of gravity as being a proven theory. But neither do we add the ridiculous caveat, "but I can't prove it".

The negative however, perhaps makes the analogy more clear. I cannot prove gravity exists throughout the Universe. Researchers have not tested gravity in every single place within the Universe. However, they have tested gravity in enough places to develop the theory of gravity. And no one speaks of gravity with the caveat that we must be agnostic about it because we cannot rule out the fact gravity doesn't exist somewhere it hasn't been tested.

That concept is valid and it is a given in science that the unknown exists. But it is not touted as important when saying the theory of gravity is supported by overwhelming evidence to add the fact one must be 'agnostic' about it.

I do not claim the technical correctness of not being able to prove no gods is erroneous. I do claim that the scientific principle is misused when it is claimed as some reason for me not to say, gods do not exist.
 
Just so you don't waste your time, Claus, I am not going to argue with you over your misconceptions of what was said. I will discuss the principles I am stating, but I will not argue with you that you believe you have not misinterpreted something when I, the person making the statement, say you have. That's akin to telling me you can read my mind and I cannot.


Oh, and the blame for the miscommunication is completely unimportant in most cases. Communication takes two people and words are just not perfect enough to always mean the same thing to two different people. I have no issue with your misinterpretation of what I say. The issue I have is when I clarify what was said, you stick with the misunderstood version.
 
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I do not follow. I probably really do misunderstand science though I doubt Skeptigirl does. What I took this to refer to was the question of proving a negative. That was certainly some part of the discussion. I rather thought that was part of philosophy of science,but I may well be wrong. My grasp of this stuff is very limited. So help me here. I thought it was true that one could not prove that all swans were white, because you could not check every single swan: but that one black swan proved the statement false. And so science requires falsifiability of that sort. In the same way I thought that the sentence about gravity meant "I don't say "gravity exists: but I can't prove it because I cannot test gravity in every location"" That is you cannot find the gravitational equivalent of a black swan atm

Sorry if that is confused. I often am :)
 
Of course gravity exists and of course there is overwhelming evidence. But in science "theories" are not statements of fact. They are descriptions of what the best evidence supports. The "law of gravity" is a mathematical statement. The "theory" of gravity is a scientific term and theories are not the same as laws. We don't speak of the theory of gravity as being a proven theory. But neither do we add the ridiculous caveat, "but I can't prove it".

The negative however, perhaps makes the analogy more clear. I cannot prove gravity exists throughout the Universe. Researchers have not tested gravity in every single place within the Universe. However, they have tested gravity in enough places to develop the theory of gravity. And no one speaks of gravity with the caveat that we must be agnostic about it because we cannot rule out the fact gravity doesn't exist somewhere it hasn't been tested.


That concept is valid and it is a given in science that the unknown exists. But it is not touted as important when saying the theory of gravity is supported by overwhelming evidence to add the fact one must be 'agnostic' about it.

I do not claim the technical correctness of not being able to prove no gods is erroneous. I do claim that the scientific principle is misused when it is claimed as some reason for me not to say, gods do not exist.

You clearly don't understand how natural laws work and how we test them. We do not need to test a natural law in every place of the universe to see if it is a natural law.

Would you say that evolution is a fact?

Just so you don't waste your time, Claus, I am not going to argue with you over your misconceptions of what was said.

I will discuss the principles I am stating, but I will not argue with you that you believe you have not misinterpreted something when I, the person making the statement, say you have. That's akin to telling me you can read my mind and I cannot.

Oh, and the blame for the miscommunication is completely unimportant in most cases. Communication takes two people and words are just not perfect enough to always mean the same thing to two different people. I have no issue with your misinterpretation of what I say. The issue I have is when I clarify what was said, you stick with the misunderstood version.

You have plenty of issues with what you claim are my constant misunderstandings of what you say.

But it is not my fault if you leave out quotes, or add to/explain away/change what you said earlier, that completely change the meaning of what you say.
 
I understand what the term theory and law both refer to in science, Claus. What is it about my use of the term, theory, makes you think I am referring to the term, law?

The "natural laws" you speak of refer to physical observations. A scientific theory, while related, is not the same as a scientific "law".

From Wiki, scientific lawWP
The concept of a scientific law is closely related to the concept of a scientific theory. A scientific law attempts to describe an observation in nature while a scientific theory attempts to explain it.

The term "scientific law" is traditionally associated with the natural sciences and hence the term is used interchangeably with the term physical laws. The biological sciences also have scientific laws, such as Mendelian inheritance and the Hardy-Weinberg principle found in genetics. The social sciences also contain scientific laws [1].

Science, Evolution, and Creationism, National Academy of ScienceChapter 1, EVOLUTION AND THE NATURE OF SCIENCE; page 11.
Science Evolution and Creationism Is Evolution a Theory or a Fact? It is both. But that answer requires looking more deeply at the meanings of the words “theory” and “fact.”... The formal scientific definition of theory is quite different from the everyday meaning of the word. It refers to a comprehensive explanation of some aspect of nature that is supported by a vast body of evidence. Many scientific theories are so well established that no new evidence is likely to alter them substantially. For example, no new evidence will demonstrate that the Earth does not orbit around the Sun (heliocentric theory), or that living things are not made of cells (cell theory), that matter is not composed of atoms, or that the surface of the Earth is not divided into solid plates that have moved over geological timescales (the theory of plate tectonics). Like these other foundational scientific theories, the theory of evolution is supported by so many observations and confirming experiments that scientists are confident that the basic components of the theory will not be overturned by new evidence. However, like all scientific theories, the theory of evolution is subject to continuing refinement as new areas of science emerge or as new technologies enable observations and experiments that were not possible previously. One of the most useful properties of scientific theories is that they can be used to make predictions about natural events or phenomena that have not yet been observed. For example, the theory of gravitation predicted the behavior of objects on the Moon and other planets long before the activities of spacecraft and astronauts confirmed them. ... In science, a “fact” typically refers to an observation, measurement, or other form of evidence that can be expected to occur the same way under similar circumstances. However, scientists also use the term “fact” to refer to a scientific explanation that has been tested and confirmed so many times that there is no longer a compelling reason to keep testing it or looking for additional examples. In that respect, the past and continuing occurrence of evolution is a scientific fact. Because the evidence supporting it is so strong, scientists no longer question whether biological evolution has occurred and is continuing to occur. Instead, they investigate the mechanisms of evolution, how rapidly evolution can take place, and related questions. In science it is not possible to prove with absolute certainty that a given explanation is complete and final. Some of the explanations advanced by scientists turn out to be incorrect when they are tested by further observations or experiments. New instruments may make observations possible that reveal the inadequacy of an existing explanation. New ideas can lead to explanations that reveal the incompleteness or deficiencies of previous explanations. Many scientific ideas that once were accepted are now known to be inaccurate or to apply only within a limited domain.
 
...
You have plenty of issues with what you claim are my constant misunderstandings of what you say.

But it is not my fault if you leave out quotes, or add to/explain away/change what you said earlier, that completely change the meaning of what you say.
And again you completely ignore what I said and replace it with what you imagine I said.

Like I said, "The issue I have is when I clarify what was said, you stick with the misunderstood version."
 
I do not follow. I probably really do misunderstand science though I doubt Skeptigirl does. What I took this to refer to was the question of proving a negative. That was certainly some part of the discussion. I rather thought that was part of philosophy of science,but I may well be wrong. My grasp of this stuff is very limited. So help me here. I thought it was true that one could not prove that all swans were white, because you could not check every single swan: but that one black swan proved the statement false. And so science requires falsifiability of that sort. In the same way I thought that the sentence about gravity meant "I don't say "gravity exists: but I can't prove it because I cannot test gravity in every location"" That is you cannot find the gravitational equivalent of a black swan atm

Sorry if that is confused. I often am :)
I knew I was too wordy in that reply to your post. It didn't sound any more clear after I restated it. I think it was most clear the first time.

This whole thing revolves around the continual use of the claim atheism is too strong of a statement and agnosticism is the correct position because one cannot "prove" there are no gods. At first glance, this is technically correct. But that technicality is the equivalent of saying one cannot "prove" the theory of gravity. That is also technically correct and hopefully my previous posts explains why that is how theories are referred to in science.

It gets confusing as Claus seems to have erred because we have a separate term in science, a law. But the fact there is a "law" of gravity does not change the fact there is also a "theory" of gravity. And the fact the theory of gravity is not often questioned, doesn't change the definition of a scientific theory either.

That same technicality regarding scientific principles is also touted by people afraid to face or are unaware that we have concluded in science the theory of evolution is essentially a fact. But I digress...


The scientific technicality that one cannot prove there are no gods is misused. One needn't be agnostic because one cannot 'prove' there are no gods because there is no evidence there are gods. Or at least it should be clear that one is simply being anal about a scientific principle rather than actually agnostic about the possibility of gods.

I tried to give a few examples where we do not apply principles of science in such an anal way to illustrate what I meant.
 
You clearly don't understand how natural laws work and how we test them. We do not need to test a natural law in every place of the universe to see if it is a natural law.
I have an issue with this. Yes, we do. An implicit assumption in our study of physics is that the physics we are studying is more than a prevailing local condition.

This assumption has never been conclusively verified. We have failed to observe anything outside this galaxy operating counter to our laws of physics, except for certain gravitational anomalies and problems (we attribute this to Dark Matter) and a lot of missing energy (we attribute this to Dark Energy). But I'd like testing in a minimum of two other galaxies before I would be willing to sign off as certainty that the laws of physics apply everywhere. There's no reason they wouldn't - but there's no reason - beyond massive headache generation above all comprehension - that they necessarily have to.
 
Proving no gods is equivalent to proving no demons or thetans. Yet, those who claim to be agnostic about gods-- (as though it's a middle ground) aren't ever agnostic about demons or thetans or whether some psychic might be real somewhere.

The correct position for all invisible immeasurable forces or entities is non belief-- until or unless there is evidence to justify belief. There is no more evidence for gods than there are for demons or "real psychics" or astrally traveling souls.
 
It's really a stretch to go from purpose of life (considered a human choice) to purpose being to obey physics. If you are meaning to make the argument of no free will, I find that to be a meaningless thing to ponder though I don't discount the value other people have in pondering the free will question. It just seems like it cannot be answered whether you make it on grounds of the natural Universe or a god controlled universe.

What I was getting at is that you claimed your purpose was to reproduce. (Later, you said that was part of your purpose.) That's sort of a Darwinian view of purpose, but as we know, evolution doesn't actually have a purpose. It just happens. If your purpose is to reproduce, ala Darwin, then I'm saying that your purpose is to follow the laws of physics, which, you correctly noted, was basically the same thing as saying you have no free will.

I agree that the question cannot be answered scientifically, with or without a universe with deities. That's why I'm calling it a religious belief. Maybe that's not the best term, but I don't know of another term for a belief that must be accepted, or rejected, without scientific evidence.

ETA: Furthermore, and perhaps more importantly, I know religious people who are very religious, and are absolutely convinced about the issue of free will, but who either reject belief in God, or reject belief in a specific sort of God such as a personal God, or do not know whether or not such a God exists, but, despite their lack of belief, go through the rituals of worshipping the God that may or may not exist.
 
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