• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Sharpshooter and JFK

Bill Thompson

Banned
Joined
Oct 23, 2006
Messages
6,171
What is the straight dope about the story that sharpshooters could not recreate or renact the same shot that Oswald took to kill Kennedy?

Enough myth and hearsay. What are the facts?
 
What is exactly meant by recreating or reenacting the shot?

The fact that it is very easy for a sharpshooter to hit a target at that distance in the head?
But if you want to recreate the shot with exactly the same (down to the milimeter) place of hit and creating exactly the same fragments and exactly the same reaction of the body? No. That last thing is just not going to happen. It supposes too much information about the way everything was down to the milimeter (or even more precise). Information which just is not there.

Unfortunately the last case (appeal to perfection falacy?) is often used to wave away the demonstrations which have been made.
 
That is a very interesting way to look at it.

You are right. No one can reenact anything, if you get down to it.
 
Can you tell me when a sharpshooter was used to demonstrate that they could make the same kill that Oswald made? I have been googling it and I have not found anything.
 
That is a very interesting way to look at it.

You are right. No one can reenact anything, if you get down to it.

But you can show that the narative is possible even plausible.
The shots really weren't that difficult (ignoring for the moment the stress of trying to kill someone).
6 to 8 seconds for three shots (depending it was shot one or shot two that missed) to first hit a neck and then a head at ranges from 50 to 100 meters isn't that impossible.

Heck. The first time I ever shot at a target it was at 100 meters and with an Uzi. Not exactly a sharpshooters choice of weapon I might say. My first shot was dead in the middle of the target where I aimed. Now how difficult would that shot be with a rifle with a real barrel (and not some dinkey 26 cm barrel like the Uzi has) and with a scope?
 
Last edited:
Myth Busted!

Unsolved History: JFK - Beyond the Magic Bullet.

Here is a Wikipedia summary if you don't want to watch the whole thing.

wiki said:
A Discovery Channel special "Unsolved History: JFK — Beyond the Magic Bullet", attempted to replicate, as well as possible, the conditions of that day. The participants set up blocks of ballistics gel with a substance similar to human bone inside. These studies showed that largely undeformed bullets were possible to produce, if they were slowed by a passage through a tissue-like substance before striking bone. Next, two mannequin figures made of ballistic anatomical substances (animal skin, gelatin, and interior bone-like cast) were set up in the exact relative position of JFK and Connally. A marksman, from a distance equal to that of the sixth floor of the Book Depository building, fired the same rifle model found in the Book Depository, using a round from the same batch of "Western Case Cartridge Company" 6.5x52 mm ammunition purchased with the surplus Carcano weapon in early 1963. The path of their single bullet (followed by high speed photography) duplicated, almost exactly, the wounds suffered by the victims that day, the only difference being that the bullet did not quite have enough energy to penetrate the "thigh" substance in front of the Connally figure, because it struck an extra bone in the "rib" model (i.e., it fractured 2 ribs in the model vs. one rib in Connally). It was also slightly more deformed than CE 399, possibly for the same reason. However, this bullet came close to duplicating all wounds in both men with a single shot, with a bullet having little deformation.[73]



It wasn't even a hard shot, especially for a Marine (all Marines are marksmen). I am pretty damn sure I could make it, and I am not a Marine. In fact, it is a little surprising that he missed once.
 
Last edited:
My only experience with rifles are with a single shot bolt action .22 Lee-Enfield No.8 Mk1, the .303 Lee-Enfield rifle & the 7.62mm SLR as used by the British Military until the advent of the SA80.
The very first time I fired the .303 Lee-Enfield, I got a 1" grouping at 100yds with the standard rear folding leaf sight.
 
My only experience with rifles are with a single shot bolt action .22 Lee-Enfield No.8 Mk1, the .303 Lee-Enfield rifle & the 7.62mm SLR as used by the British Military until the advent of the SA80.
The very first time I fired the .303 Lee-Enfield, I got a 1" grouping at 100yds with the standard rear folding leaf sight.


Rifles, especially with a properly sighted in scope, are very accurate weapons. I think that most of the conspiracies survive because most of the peddlers have never even held a rifle, let alone fired one.

P.S. dtugg, love the avatar.
 
Rifles, especially with a properly sighted in scope, are very accurate weapons. I think that most of the conspiracies survive because most of the peddlers have never even held a rifle, let alone fired one.

...
.
True, that.
The 6.5 caliber rifles are used in Yurp to take moose, and handled by gurls! :)
Howard Weinberg mentioned the "mule-like kick" of the Carcano.
Mine had more "kick" than a .22 LR rifle, but much less than a .223 Remington.
HW had never fired one... may never have even seen one.
 
.
True, that.
The 6.5 caliber rifles are used in Yurp to take moose, and handled by gurls! :)
Howard Weinberg mentioned the "mule-like kick" of the Carcano.
Mine had more "kick" than a .22 LR rifle, but much less than a .223 Remington.
HW had never fired one... may never have even seen one.


A light breeze has more kick than a .22LR :D
 
A light breeze has more kick than a .22LR :D
.
I found the same scope LHOLN had on his Carcano at a gun store in Culver City.
It's made for .22 LR rifles.
On the Carcano, the cross hairs came loose after just a few shots, making it useless for aiming. Oswald's Carcano had the same problem, but the fixed sights and the flat trajectory of the round are sufficient for the Dealey distance.
Howard Donahue told he that those scopes on his Carcanos also got useless after a few shots.
 

Attachments

  • CarcanoSights.jpg
    CarcanoSights.jpg
    46.9 KB · Views: 7
The facts are that they used a sharpshooter from Texas.

Dave

There was even a TV show about recreating it.

Part of the mythology here is to change the sequence of events to make it harder.


Start timer.
Load
Acquire
Aim
Fire
Load
Acquire
Aim
Fire
Load
Acquire
Aim
Fire
Stop timer.

That's wrong, of course. The timer starts at the first "Fire".
 
There was even a TV show about recreating it.

Part of the mythology here is to change the sequence of events to make it harder.


Start timer.
Load
Acquire
...

That's wrong, of course. The timer starts at the first "Fire".

This post reminded me of video game made of the JFK assassination called JFK Reloaded where the player gets points based on how close to the actual murder you can get, it is very morbid but it quite convincingly shows that the events were possible, it is just very unlikely to get every bullet to ricochet exactly like they did.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JFK:_Reloaded
 
This post reminded me of video game made of the JFK assassination called JFK Reloaded where the player gets points based on how close to the actual murder you can get, it is very morbid but it quite convincingly shows that the events were possible, it is just very unlikely to get every bullet to ricochet exactly like they did.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JFK:_Reloaded

Unlikely based on what? Ballistics or a desire to promote another theory? Just wondering.
 

Back
Top Bottom