Sharia Law in the UK?

[Jaggy Bunnet]

We're both right. There are two types of Islamic mortgage, apparently: Murabaha, which is the sort I mentioned, and Ijara, which is the sort you mentioned.

Details here: http://www.mortgages.co.uk/islamic-mortgage.html

Don't you hate it when it turns out everybody is right?

 

[ddt]

Yes, we are so lucky that we don't get a tax deduction for our mortgage interest any more!

You had that once in the UK too? And how did they abolish that? It seems to me that if you abolish it at once, the whole housing market will collapse. Until two years ago, discussing it in Holland was taboo even in the Labour party.

It would certainly make it a bit trickier to find a tax neutral solution though.

A lot trickier, I'd say. How do you determine the interest part of the payments - or their equivalent - if there's no mention of interest in the contract? It seems that Dutch banks have been studying halal mortgages for some years now. There are none to date.

 

[WildCat]

Huh, they have this here also. Learn something new every day on this board!

http://www.devonbank.com/islamic/

There's also a 3rd type here - Musharaka, which is a "rent to own" type of arrangement but slightly different than Ijara.

But in all cases, I think, the "borrower" loses the mortgage interest tax deduction. This is quite a big hit to take on taxes!

eta: the "borrower" will also get hit twice for the transfer tax.

 

[Jaggy Bunnet]

You had that once in the UK too? And how did they abolish that? It seems to me that if you abolish it at once, the whole housing market will collapse. Until two years ago, discussing it in Holland was taboo even in the Labour party.

Originally you could claim relief on all interest.

Then (1974) they limited it to certain types, one of which was mortgage debt, and capped the amount.

Then they limited the rate at which you obtained relief (from 25% prior to April 94, to 20%, then 15% then 10%)

Then they abolished it (April 2000).

A lot trickier, I'd say. How do you determine the interest part of the payments - or their equivalent - if there's no mention of interest in the contract? It seems that Dutch banks have been studying halal mortgages for some years now. There are none to date.

A "bit trickier" may have been an understatement.

 

[tkingdoll]

Don't you hate it when it turns out everybody is right?

I wouldn't know, it hasn't happened before now!

Re: UK tax relief on mortgage interest, you still get it if its a commercial property or buy-to-let investment.

I must say, if someone pays more tax because their invisible sky daddy can only be appeased by the most pathetic sort of technical pedantry, then...well, cry me a river.

 

[Lothian]

I must say, if someone pays more tax because their invisible sky daddy can only be appeased by the most pathetic sort of technical pedantry, then...well, cry me a river.

As with lots of things there are people who will agree with you and others that won't.

On one side you have a large number of civil servants who don't want to get involved in rewriting the law (which as Jaggy said often creates loopholes) just because someone's sky daddy tells them to pay more tax.

On the other side are MPs who want to keep their constituents happy.

Unfortunately this is not a balanced situation as one side have the power to tell the other side what to do.

 

[tkingdoll]

As with lots of things there are people who will agree with you and others that won't.

On one side you have a large number of civil servants who don't want to get involved in rewriting the law (which as Jaggy said often creates loopholes) just because someone's sky daddy tells them to pay more tax.

On the other side are MPs who want to keep their constituents happy.

Unfortunately this is not a balanced situation as one side have the power to tell the other side what to do.

Interesting, though, that the solution is 'change the law' and not 'change the religion'...

 

[Lothian]

Interesting, though, that the solution is 'change the law' and not 'change the religion'...

Yes, but politics is not about what is best for the country it is about what is best for the political parties.

 

[tkingdoll]

Yes, but politics is not about what is best for the country it is about what is best for the political parties.

Yes it is, and the non-Muslim majority of the country are getting Islam-fatigue, I suspect. Certainly immigration will be the major GE issue, although of course that crosses many religions and ethnicities. In fact, non-skilled non-EU migrants are now an automatic refusal, I believe.

My point is, the major religions will change if it suits them, for example the Catholic Church getting rid of limbo, etc. Where a religion is not compatible with a clearly advantageous advancement of (Western) civilisation, or is unpopular, the religion usually gives. And I'd rather the religion adapted than the law, not least because it costs the taxpayer to change the law, unless there is a benefit to the economy (which I suspect there is with the accommodation of Islamic mortgages) or society as a whole.

 

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Re: UK tax relief on mortgage interest, you still get it if its a commercial property or buy-to-let investment.

Indeed, but that doesn't represent a problem as rent paid in the same circumstances is also tax deductible so the Islamic products work fine. The difficulty under the old UK system (and I assume the Dutch system) is that there is specific legislation giving you a deduction for interest on a loan taken out to buy your home but no relief for rental payments on somewhere to live.

 

[iamivy]

While I feel Rowan whateverhisnameisbutnottheonein"Mr.Bean" has a right to his opinion, I do not think he should use his place as head straight man for one of the sillier of religions to try to influence public legal/ political debate.

Legal advice from men in fancy dress with waggly beards is a religious practice better suited to the Middle East. It is so frightfully un-British, that I find myself wondering if the ArchBish is actually a Muslim "sleeper" infiltrated into the CoE by Alqaeda.
Stick the fellow in Gitmo, I say.

lol

 

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Well if you can think of one the Treasury would love to hear from you, because it is costing them a lot of money!

Ramsey is a non-starter though, IMO.

Lothian - did you follow up on the idea of speaking to Mr Darling?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/

 

[Lothian]

Lothian - did you follow up on the idea of speaking to Mr Darling?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/

He wouldn't return my calls, looks like you had better luck though.

Stamp duty isn't my area. There is no mention of whether there is a retrofix coming or whether existing schemes have got away with it successfully minimised their tax exposure

 

[Dr Adequate]

Just for your edification, here's Pascal's account of Jesuits doing the same workaround, from the Eighth Provincial Letter. This is supposedly a dialogue between Pascal and a Jesuit --- note how he works page references into his dialogue to prove that he's not making any of this stuff up.

“Let us now say a word or two about men of business. You are aware that our great difficulty with these gentlemen is to keep them from usury—an object to accomplish which our fathers have been at particular pains; for they hold this vice in such abhorrence that Escobar declares ‘it is heresy to say that usury is no sin’; and Father Bauny has filled several pages of his Summary of Sins with the pains and penalties due to usurers. He declares them ‘infamous during their life, and unworthy of sepulture after their death.’”

“O dear! “ cried I, “I had no idea he was so severe.”

“He can be severe enough when there is occasion for it,” said the monk; “but then this learned casuist, having observed that some are allured into usury merely from the love of gain, remarks in the same place that ‘he would confer no small obligation on society, who, while he guarded it against the evil effects of usury, and of the sin which gives birth to it, would suggest a method by which one’s money might secure as large, if not a larger profit, in some honest and lawful employment than he could derive from usurious dealings.’”

“Undoubtedly, father, there would be no more usurers after that.”

[...]

“These are subtle methods; but, to my mind, the best of them all (for we have a great choice of them) is that of the Mohatra bargain.”

“The Mohatra, father!”

“You are not acquainted with it, I see,” returned he. “The name is the only strange thing about it. Escobar will explain it to you: ‘The Mohatra bargain is effected by the needy person purchasing some goods at a high price and on credit, in order to sell them over again, at the same time and to the same merchant, for ready money and at a cheap rate.’ This is what we call the Mohatra—a sort of bargain, you perceive, by which a person receives a certain sum of ready money by becoming bound to pay more.”

“But, sir, I really think nobody but Escobar has employed such a term as that; is it to be found in any other book?”

“How little you do know of what is going on, to be sure!” cried the father. “Why, the last work on theological morality, printed at Paris this very year, speaks of the Mohatra, and learnedly, too. It is called Epilogus Summarum, and is an abridgment of all the summaries of divinity—extracted from Suarez, Sanchez, Lessius, Fagundez, Hurtado, and other celebrated casuists, as the title bears. There you will find it said, on p. 54, that ‘the Mohatra bargain takes place when a man who has occasion for twenty pistoles purchases from a merchant goods to the amount of thirty pistoles, payable within a year, and sells them back to him on the spot for twenty pistoles ready money.’ This shows you that the Mohatra is not such an unheard-of term as you supposed.”

 

[Jaggy Bunnet]

He wouldn't return my calls, looks like you had better luck though.

Stamp duty isn't my area. There is no mention of whether there is a retrofix coming or whether existing schemes have got away with it successfully minimised their tax exposure

Don't see any chance of a retrofix - all the tax that was due under the law was paid.

Think the article seriously underestimates the volume in which this has been used as well.

 

[INRM]

I do not think this is a good idea... religion and state should be kept seperate for a simple reason. Their mixture has toxic side-effects.


INRM
I wonder if this is some kind of ploy to ultimately cause a civil war in England in such a way as to require the EU to absorb England into it

 

[Ateius]

I do not like this idea, and was immensely relieved when it was turned down in Ontario, as I happen to live here.

What I don't like about it - aside from the possibility of violating the rights of women, the possibility of using it to justify some of the more barbaric punishments, etc., etc. - is that, on the face of it, I don't see a need for it to be a governmentally recognized law. If it is something only the faithful will take part in, and furthermore something that they will have to volunteer to take part in, there is no reason it cannot function as a set of rules within the muslim community without being established as law through the government. There is no reason to have it declared legally binding by the government, unless it is a 'foot-in-the-door' scenario, or they do plan to enact some of the harsher alternatives which would otherwise be very, very illegal (and with very good reason!).

I hold the same position on other religious "laws". If a community wishes to follow them - and they do not violate the secular laws - fine, go nuts. Don't try and have the rules of your personal religion enshrined as government-sanctioned law. Religious law has no place in a secular legal system. End of story.

 

[Dr Adequate]

I wonder if this is some kind of ploy to ultimately cause a civil war in England in such a way as to require the EU to absorb England into it

Er ... we are in fact already a member state of the EU.

Which makes that about the dumbest conspiracy theory ever.

 

[SteveGrenard]

Maybe poster means to absorb England into the Muslim EU....Ateius has o/w come to a lot of sensible conclusions so maybe will benefit from confirming what he/she writes by checking out the links found at the Following wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad_Watch

Here are some links/posts on the Muslim take over of significant parts of Sweden:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1637717/posts

You can find plenty of debate on the Muslim enclaves in France, Germany, Spain ....
all of which, terminating in the UK, can be attributed to the Islamic conspiracy to re-establish the caliphate.

Nope, you're right. the UK is not only already in the EU (save for its currency) large parts of it are also Muslim. Say wasn't this what the thread was about?

Why shouldn't immigrants be allowed to bring their own religion, culture, foods and laws with them. It would save them the trouble of attacking a target country from the outside.

Make sure and wear goggles to keep the sand out of your eyes.

 

[Fiona]

I have only just noticed this thread, so I am sorry if this has already been said. What the Archbishop wants is a "free market" in law. He made more than one speech about this but in the one I listened to in full he specifically recognises this as a consequence of his proposal and he embraces it as a good idea. He says the different legal systems will have to "compete" for people to use them and he sees this as very positive