Share a moral dilemma!

[Dark Jaguar]

Ryokan: I don't think it does. I think it only pretends to believe in it.

Rather than admitting that they did consider stealing from you, but opted not to do it because they wouldn't want to risk their reputation or your friendship, they will say that stealing wouldn't even enter their mind because they are such moral persons. But it's really nonsense. They may not have had that particular impulse at the time, because they had been in similar situations before. But 'morality' is an empty concept, in my opinion. It explains nothing.

You left out the possibility that they also value YOUR happiness when they decide not to steal from you. Some people do have that viewpoint, a lot in fact, and it's not self deception. One of my own personal values is the happiness and well being of the people I care about. The philosophical sophistry about it and the evolutionary basis for it aside, that is the reality of it. Sure one might say "it's only to give you emotional well being" but so what? I still value it and it's important to me. I'm being fully honest when I say I would not consider stealing from my mother. It's not that I look and say "that would not benefit me" but rather "that would not benefit her". I may be an idiot but I also don't bother thinking about it past that. And it isn't a matter of explaining anything. If I say I like vanilla, that's just a statement, not an explanation.

I can respect that you have decided not to hurt others because you realized it doesn't benefit you. Some people don't hurt others because it doesn't benefit THEM. That's fine too. If you think that's illogical, then ask yourself this. Isn't benefiting yourself just as illogical? Why do you care so much about your own enlightened self interest? Why don't you run around doing as much as you can to hamper your own progress? When you can figure that out and why you care about your own interests, you'll see why I must logically extend that to everyone else.

Just remind me not to get anyone I care about, such as myself, in the way of your own interests.

But back to the topic at hand, from everything I could tell in that post, his main concern was about how this would benefit the rest of them. His dilemma was in not totally hurting his friends, you see. Also, it was an episode of Star Trek Next Generation.

 

[President Bush]

A customer, who I see only very occasionally, was born without eyes. Saw her recently for the first time in a while and her dark sunglasses had been replaced with new glass eyes. She gave me a big smile.

Her mother seemed to be watching me closely for any reaction I might have, as if to confirm that these eyes, flat and staring wide like broken seashells on a beach in Hell, were good enough. I heard the shrieking of the void.

The daughter was very proud of her new eyes. Her smile showed that.

My moral dilemma was this: would it be alright for me to ask for a photo to be taken of the two of us?

 

[Glen.Nogami]

A customer, who I see only very occasionally, was born without eyes. Saw her recently for the first time in a while and her dark sunglasses had been replaced with new glass eyes. She gave me a big smile.

Her mother seemed to be watching me closely for any reaction I might have, as if to confirm that these eyes, flat and staring wide like broken seashells on a beach in Hell, were good enough. I heard the shrieking of the void.

The daughter was very proud of her new eyes. Her smile showed that.

My moral dilemma was this: would it be alright for me to ask for a photo to be taken of the two of us?

I don't know how well void-shriek goes over photographs. If it did, then yes, to enrich your house with terrifying shrieking of voids, you certainly may get a photograph.

 

[Dark Jaguar]

Did the fake eyes really look THAT bad? I mean, I've seen a number of glass eyes, though honestly only "on the TV". Maybe that was a misrepresentation of reality, perhaps? However, if that is anything to go by (big if), I'd think they would look fine.

 

[President Bush]

I don't know how well void-shriek goes over photographs. If it did, then yes, to enrich your house with terrifying shrieking of voids, you certainly may get a photograph.

Did the fake eyes really look THAT bad? I mean, I've seen a number of glass eyes, though honestly only "on the TV". Maybe that was a misrepresentation of reality, perhaps? However, if that is anything to go by (big if), I'd think they would look fine.

It was like her eyes had laser technology finding that part of my brain thinking bad thoughts. I wanted the picture because it would have been frightening.

 

[RenaissanceBiker]

When I was in college, I dated a girl pretty seriously and we eventually got engaged. 3 months later, I found out she was cheating on me. I was devastated. Then I found out that most of my friends knew about it but didn't tell me. I soon had a lot fewer friends.

The next year, one of my remaining friends graduated. His fiance still had a year to go and so did I. I found out she was cheating on him. What to do? I delayed making a decision until it was too late. Now I assume that's what my previous friends did as well so I'm just as bad as they were.

One night me and his fiance got drunk and ended up at her place. Now I'm even worse than my old friends. I was the best man at their wedding and I haven't seen them since.

/baggage

 

[President Bush]

A customer, who I see only very occasionally, was born without eyes. Saw her recently for the first time in a while and her dark sunglasses had been replaced with new glass eyes. She gave me a big smile.

Her mother seemed to be watching me closely for any reaction I might have, as if to confirm that these eyes, flat and staring wide like broken seashells on a beach in Hell, were good enough. I heard the shrieking of the void.

The daughter was very proud of her new eyes. Her smile showed that.

My moral dilemma was this: would it be alright for me to ask for a photo to be taken of the two of us?

The way I presented this does not constitute a moral dilemma. Had I said the mother asked me to pose for a picture with her daughter - to confirm what well-made eyes they were - it would.

Agreeing to such, I would have done someting wrong. Eyes resembling unsorted glass refuse hand-painted with a directional look by a Dollar Store Edvard Munch seem cheap and deliberately unnerving. Or could the mother really afford no better?

But not agreeing to pose with the daughter for a picture would have been wrong, also. I'd have to have said why if asked why not. Or dare I chance that the young woman might intend to signal come hither to Nosferatu?

 

[Walk The Line]

When I was in college, I dated a girl pretty seriously and we eventually got engaged. 3 months later, I found out she was cheating on me. I was devastated. Then I found out that most of my friends knew about it but didn't tell me. I soon had a lot fewer friends.

The next year, one of my remaining friends graduated. His fiance still had a year to go and so did I. I found out she was cheating on him. What to do? I delayed making a decision until it was too late. Now I assume that's what my previous friends did as well so I'm just as bad as they were.

One night me and his fiance got drunk and ended up at her place. Now I'm even worse than my old friends. I was the best man at their wedding and I haven't seen them since.

/baggage

Wow, I didn't know stuff like this actually happens.

 

[President Bush]

Agreeing to such, I would have done someting wrong. Eyes resembling unsorted glass refuse hand-painted with a directional look by a Dollar Store Edvard Munch seem cheap and deliberately unnerving. Or could the mother really afford no better?

But not agreeing to pose with the daughter for a picture would have been wrong, also. I'd have to have said why if asked why not. Or dare I chance that the young woman might intend to signal come hither to Nosferatu?

Happy Birthday, Edvard Munch

 

[Merko]

You left out the possibility that they also value YOUR happiness when they decide not to steal from you.

Not really. You might probably agree that your mother's happiness is your happiness. There's nothing strange about that. Though it all depends on the situation. Drug addicts very frequently steal from their mothers. Then the difference becomes clear. You only value your mother's happiness as long as it also promotes *your* happiness.

Now of course I don't go around asking myself every time I see a friend or a new aquaintance, whether it would not be a good idea to steal from them, or whatever. I've come to a general conclusion that this would not be a good idea. But it's no more 'moral' than the fact that I also don't consider jumping in front of the car every time one passes me on the street.

I still value it and it's important to me.

Exactly, that's my point. You value it. If it was no value to *you*, it would have no impact. If for some reason it would cease to have a value, or the value would be diminished (for example, you became a drug addict suffering heavy abstinence), then chances are that it would be less important to you.

It's not that I look and say "that would not benefit me" but rather "that would not benefit her".

Sure. But if you build a house and decide to use a 10 mm bolt to secure some structure instead of an 8 mm bolt, it's not like you go thinking about how that 10 mm bolt means so much to you personally. You have already decided that you want a sturdy house. So you see anything that furthers the cause of a sturdy house to be valuable, even when it is only an indirect value. You have decided long ago that you love your mother, and this greatly simplifies your thoughts with regards to her. For the moment, it is prudent to keep it uncomplicated.

But say that one day, she becomes ill and demented. She starts making more and more unreasonable demands that you take care of her. Meanwhile, you have your own family with several children to take care of. She wants to move in with you, but she frequently becomes hysterical at your children and you know that this would ruin your relation with your children, who are scared by her.

At this point I am certain that you would no longer consider the well-being of your mother equivalent to the well-being of yourself. Yes, you love her, but you also have other interests. And in the end, it is your interests, not hers, that guide you.

Isn't benefiting yourself just as illogical?

Sure. There is nothing logical about motivation. It's just an instinct. But it's there, and we follow it.

 

[Godmode]

Wow, I didn't know stuff like this actually happens.

Yeah it happens all the time. I once found out that a guy was cheating on a friend of mine, and I went to the CHEATER, told him I knew, and that he needed to come clean to my friend. The implication being if he didn't, I would, although I never actually said that.

In general I believe it's best to stay out of people's relationships, all too often it's a "kill the messenger" type of deal. Also, it's pretty easy to misunderstand a situation, so why stir up trouble if you don't know the whole story??

In my mind, in that particular situation, my actions seemed the most reasonable course of action, and I don't regret doing it.

 

[Beerina]

Also, it's pretty easy to misunderstand a situation, so why stir up trouble if you don't know the whole story??

"That wasn't some girl, that was my sister, you goof!"

"Oh yeah? Why were you sucking her tongue?"

"Uhhhh..."


Here's another one. You're sitting on the sectional sofa at home with a good looking 40-something mother and her good-looking 20-something daughter, both wearing shorts and short tops as it's hot summertime and the AC isn't working. You suddenly realize you can read minds! Nothing in particular going on with either of them. But you think you can do more. You try an experiment. When the daughter casually glances at her mom's belly button, you tweak her mind. Oooh, suddenly her eyes open wide and she looks away, flushed. Then the mom casually looks at her daughter, the turn of the ankle, the curve of the calf. You tweak, ooh, the mother looks away, flushed.

The moral dilemma: Do you keep going and "make it happen"? After all, free will is the freedom to "do what you want", and says nothing about how wants develope, or do you HEY GET THOSE GUYS WITH THE WHITE JACKET AWAY FROM ME!!!!!

 

[DRBUZZ0]

I once parked next to a car with it's headlights on. Didn't think much about it, and went into a store. I came out a few minutes later and the lights were still on. It was apparent it was not on a timer.

I looked around. There were a bunch of stores and it was not apparent which one the car's owner may be in. The car was slightly old like early 1990s and looked like it was probably a student's or someone young, as it had a textbook in the back and some other stuff, which I don't remember, but indicated that (like the youthful-esq air freshener and such).

The door was unlocked, so I took it upon myself to open it and to turn the knob to off, thus shutting off the headlights.

I may have saved them a dead battery, but I will never know if they had intended them to be on or if they would have pressed charges if they found out that I had invaded their car like that...

 

[Godmode]

The door was unlocked, so I took it upon myself to open it and to turn the knob to off, thus shutting off the headlights.

I may have saved them a dead battery, but I will never know if they had intended them to be on or if they would have pressed charges if they found out that I had invaded their car like that...

Just recently while we were out for a walk we noticed a car with the lights on, I thought about just reaching in, but I didn't know if it was alarmed or not. So I basically went to the closest house and asked if they knew whose car it was, they did so we went over there and let them know. The weird thing is, they didn't seem very grateful...more annoyed.

 

[qayak]

One of my daughters works in a coffee house while she is in college. I went in for a coffee when she wasn't there and while waiting in line one of the girls screwed up an order. She poured three regular coffees when the customer had asked for decaffienated.

The girl pours three decaffs and then turns to the people in line and says, "Anyone want a coffe, free of charge?" Of course the coffees are snapped up in an instant by three young people. The girl is all happy because she hasn't had to pour out the coffee.

I mention the incident to my daughter and explain why she is not to do this. She informs me that it goes on with several of the other girls and although she hasn't done it, she never realized it was stealing.

A few days later I return to the coffee shop. Same girl, another screw up, this time with food and drinks which she promptly gives to people in line. This time though, I notice that the people in line taking the food and drinks are the same people that got the coffee the previous time. It turns out, with a little more observation, that this girl is providing her friends with free food and drinks everytime they come into the shop.

So, now we have three groups of people working in the shop. Those who do not steal, those who steal unknowingly and those who knowingly steal everyday.

Moral dilemma: Do I inform the owner that some of his staff is stealing from him and risk having everyone fired including the thief? Do I inform him that some of the girls are making an mistake that as a businessman he needs to correct and allow the thief to go free? Or do I just ignore the whole thing and demonstrate to my daughter that there is no consequence to dishonesty?

I have already made my decision and carried it out so let's see if anyone else would make the same choice.

 

[qayak]

The weird thing is, they didn't seem very grateful...more annoyed.

They were annoyed because you pointed out a stupid action on their part. I learned long ago that someone leaving their lights on is not worth my attention. First off, as you noticed, they are seldom grateful and second, they seldom learn from the experience. Better to have them stranded in the middle of the night, in the middle of nowhere with a dead battery. People learn from that. They learn even faster if it is cold and rainy/snowy.

 

[athon]

One of my daughters works in a coffee house while she is in college. I went in for a coffee when she wasn't there and while waiting in line one of the girls screwed up an order. She poured three regular coffees when the customer had asked for decaffienated.

The girl pours three decaffs and then turns to the people in line and says, "Anyone want a coffe, free of charge?" Of course the coffees are snapped up in an instant by three young people. The girl is all happy because she hasn't had to pour out the coffee.

I mention the incident to my daughter and explain why she is not to do this. She informs me that it goes on with several of the other girls and although she hasn't done it, she never realized it was stealing.

A few days later I return to the coffee shop. Same girl, another screw up, this time with food and drinks which she promptly gives to people in line. This time though, I notice that the people in line taking the food and drinks are the same people that got the coffee the previous time. It turns out, with a little more observation, that this girl is providing her friends with free food and drinks everytime they come into the shop.

So, now we have three groups of people working in the shop. Those who do not steal, those who steal unknowingly and those who knowingly steal everyday.

Moral dilemma: Do I inform the owner that some of his staff is stealing from him and risk having everyone fired including the thief? Do I inform him that some of the girls are making an mistake that as a businessman he needs to correct and allow the thief to go free? Or do I just ignore the whole thing and demonstrate to my daughter that there is no consequence to dishonesty?

I have already made my decision and carried it out so let's see if anyone else would make the same choice.

Tough call.

I've been in similar situations in my time as a barrista, where I've given away a free coffee or two simply because I've made the wrong one. No big deal, and I was in a position to make that decision anyway (well, I had the authority to). It helped customer relations as well.

If this was an illegal practice in the store, I would probably point out to the manager that one girl in particular seems to be doing it in order to serve her friends, while others have picked up the habit under the mistaken belief that mis-made coffees can be given to any customers for free. It would take one heartless manager to fire everybody.

In a similar vein, it was not uncommon for barristas to make coffees on skim or full cream milk (whichever was already heated) and claim they were the other to fill an order. I can honestly say I never did this (although I did lie once and say we were out of chocolate so I didn't have to go into the supply cupbard during a busy period).

Athon