Shamanism, Satan, and Kenworths

[Roadtoad]

I had an early morning run today, (left our yard around midnight; thanks a lot, Boss...), so last night, I turned in early, around four in the afternoon. Not an easy thing to do when you're used to working days, but you do what you have to do.

Around eight, though, my wife and my youngest son were arguing, which, given his attitude of late, seems to be a rather common occurance around this house. I poked my head into our home office, and learned that my son doesn't want to be a Christian anymore, (which, if had been interested in being one in the first place would have been something of a shock), but rather, he was interested in Shamanism.

Okay, that rocked me back on my heels a bit.

Now, this is radically different from my oldest son, who's got questions and is talking with me and his wife, and reading around, trying to figure out what's what. It's different from my second son, who's given up on God, after seeing the abuse my wife and I took at the hands of the church, in Jesus name. And it's still further afield from my third son, who, while a Christian, is reading lots of Carl Sagan and Michael Shermer. Matt has decided that he doesn't like God, because God has become like a punk kid with a magnifying glass standing over an anthill. Oddly enough, that part I could understand.

But the other part of it is what concerned me: Matt claims he can "see" spirits.

My wife and I were looking at one another, trying to figure out, okay, is this some 17-year-old rite of passage? Are kids these days supposed to go to their parents and spew this sort of warped bilge? I've listened to his music with him, and hear nothing of this sort in the lyrics, and actually found myself liking Nightwish, (which, of course, made it un-cool for him to listen to). His friends have been into Wicca and various New Age things, but this is outside (I think) what these kids believe. Of course, none of these people, who are in their 20's, seem able to hold a job, not even any that involve funny paper hats, and they all live with Mom and Dad.

Matt, of course, is claiming he's seen evidence of Satan, and he's seen demons, and he wants to fight them. I personally think he's been watching too much TV, and given the number of books we've got around this house covering this sort of subject matter, including religious surveys, there's really no excuse for this.

I finally had enough after listening to Matt's meanderings about this, and I told him what I thought about it. I realize some shrinks will think that I'm not being a good parent by not catering to this spiritual drivel, but I thought it was time to put this to rest, and do it quickly.

"Let me point something out to you, Young Sir," I shot back when he caught his breath. "I can show you on James Randi's site about any number of things, including 'aura readings,' and how 99 percent of it is nothing more than wanting to see this. I realize there's a great appeal for this sort of experimentation, because I've been there, too.

"But, there's one thing about this old world you'd better learn and learn quick: You are obligated to take on the world on the world's terms, and as the world really is, not as you want it to be.

"Your friends spend their days wandering around the neighborhood; they don't drive, they can barely manage to keep their bikes in good repair, they don't hold jobs, and when they find them, they can't keep them. One of them who has managed to do that has just about gotten herself fired because she won't deal with situations as they are, they're just 'too harsh' that way.

"Got a hot flash for you, kiddo: The rest of the world does not care how you feel about the way things are. If you don't like how they are, you have to deal with what is as it is, and work to change things. Some things will change, some things won't, but you sure as hell won't make it with this pseudospiritual feelgood crap."

"You just don't understand, Dad," my youngest cut in. "I've been seeing spirits for years...!"

"They've got whole buildings full of people like that in Napa."

"You don't get it..."

"I get it," I answered. "I've been there. Tell me something: do you LIKE living pretty much hand to mouth as we have for the bulk of your life? This is a CONSEQUENCE of my choices earlier in life to not take on life as it really is. It is a CONSEQUENCE that I may not have the money to put you and your brothers through school, because I wanted to do things based on what I FELT they ought to be, not as they were.

"If you are damned lucky, you might get a shot at picking up a Commercial Driver's License. I know lots of guys who have CDLs who live like that. Some of them don't keep 'em long; the Laws of Physics don't really care how you feel about them, they simply go into effect when you do something really stupid."

"I don't want to drive a truck..."

"NEITHER DO I! BUT IT PAYS THE DAMN BILLS! That's what happens when you do things based on what you want to believe rather than on what IS! Hell, I'd rather you chose Buddhism or Atheism, at least when people are serious about either, they deal with REALITY!"

My wife cut in at that point. I was getting angrier by the moment, and I was losing my son's attention. I don't know what to do at this point, but I'm more afraid of my own silence right now than his choices.

Round Two, coming up.

 

[espritch]

I don't have any kids so I'm probably not qualified to comment on this, but I'll give you my thoughts for what it's worth.

If I know anything it is that you can't change anyone else's mind. You can offer your opinion but you can't make them accept it. At some point, a person has to learn their own lessons. If your son is 17, you really aren't going to be able to reach him by getting mad and arguing. You've made your view clear. I'm not sure what a round 2 would accomplish.

I wonder if his "spirits" might be something more than just wanting the world to be a certain way? I've heard that schizophrenics often first start to exhibit symptoms in the late teens or early twenties. I'm not familiar enough with the subject to know what sorts of things might indicate something like this, but it might not be a bad idea to have him talk with someone who is qualified, if only to rule out the possibility.

If there isn't a mental health issue, then all I can suggest is that you not let him become one of those adults that live with their parents. Sometimes, a push out of the nest is exactly what a person needs to grow up.

In any event, good luck. I hope you work this out.

 

[Suggestologist]

Do you know what he means by "seeing spirits"? Is it like seeing an imaginary friend? Or what? I think you could take an interest in finding out what precisely he's talking about.

I also don't understand what this has to do with employment. You can find all kinds of successful people with all kinds of weird beliefs. Perhaps it's your own history that leads you to some overgeneralization here?

And, if he can get "spirits" to tell him the correct answers to test questions at school, his beliefs could be an asset. In fact, getting him to think along such lines could spoil the fantasy for him. You already spoiled the enjoyment of some music group he was listening to. Why not repeat what has worked in the past?

I think it would be wise to apologize for shouting. Set a good responsible example? You know, something like: "I'm sorry I shouted, but when you X'ed, it made me feel Y, and I wanted to keep Z from happening to you, because I W(e.g., care about) you."

The method you chose of "putting the matter to rest" nearly always fails to work; that's reality, are you willing to face it?

 

[Roadtoad]

I don't have any kids so I'm probably not qualified to comment on this, but I'll give you my thoughts for what it's worth.

If I know anything it is that you can't change anyone else's mind. You can offer your opinion but you can't make them accept it. At some point, a person has to learn their own lessons. If your son is 17, you really aren't going to be able to reach him by getting mad and arguing. You've made your view clear. I'm not sure what a round 2 would accomplish.

I wonder if his "spirits" might be something more than just wanting the world to be a certain way? I've heard that schizophrenics often first start to exhibit symptoms in the late teens or early twenties. I'm not familiar enough with the subject to know what sorts of things might indicate something like this, but it might not be a bad idea to have him talk with someone who is qualified, if only to rule out the possibility.

If there isn't a mental health issue, then all I can suggest is that you not let him become one of those adults that live with their parents. Sometimes, a push out of the nest is exactly what a person needs to grow up.

In any event, good luck. I hope you work this out.

Thanks, Bro. Actually, we've spoken at some length about seeing spirits, and we're very sure that this is not the beginning stage of schizophrenia, though it is something we're keeping an eye out for. Trust me, someone with my background needs to be aware.

For the most part, he's relatively well grounded, it's just this insistence in following a bizarre belief system which clearly does not work. Based on the evidence I see, with kids in this neighborhood, there's something very, very wrong.

I'm not trying to spoil fantasies for my son. A good fantasy, when it's balanced with a solid grounding in the real world, can be a good thing. (I wasn't trying to spoil his enjoyment of the Finnish band, Nightwish. In fact, he was busy trying to get me to listen to it because he enjoyed it, and thought I would, too.) I'm more concerned with the fantasy overshadowing the real world. We already see evidence of what happens there with people like John Edward, Sylvia Browne, and the Homeopathy crowd. Frankly, that scares the hell out of me.

Matt's got a great and vivid imagination; he writes, (when he can sit still long enough to do it), he paints, he cooks on occasion, and he's very good at all of them. But, you still have to deal with realities, and there are hard ones out there.

(And yes, he already knows, if he's not working or going to school when he graduates from High School, he's out on his own.)

 

[Dancing David]

Hi Roadtoad!

There seem to be a lot of issues going around here, the first is your relationship with your youngest son, there are plenty of good parenting sources, and given the nature of your posts, you will recah all the right conclusions anyhow.

Try to seperate the choices of not choosing to work and seperate them from other personal belief choices. Most shamanism is just another neopagan revival of old tradition. If he stays away from the hallucinogenic plants then he will be okay,
BUT make sure he is not messing with datura in any form(Jimson weed, and the tropicals), belladonna, henbane or any of the herbal stuff that contains large amounts of scopolamine. Even eating a large number of morning glory seeds can have very long term effects on the brain.

As far as his 'seeing spirits', this is very interesting and needs further follow up. But it will take earning his trust, which stomping on his beliefs will not do. It could be that he is interpreting many things as spirits that can be explained normaly. It could also be that he is having experiences that he interprets as spirits. It could also be that he is seeing spirits.
In this final case I hope that you have built a large amount of trust and patience with your son, people who 'see things' usualy have some wierd stuff going on in thier brains:
1. They are using hallucinogens.
2. They have used substances like PCP and caused brain damage.
3. They have suffered closed head injuries and have brain damage.
4. They have a seizure disorder, most likely of the temporal lobes.
5. They have something wrong with thier eyes.
6. They are having a brain tumor.
7. Very rarely having visions is a result of a mental illness.

There are good reasons to calmly win your son's trust and to find out what is going on in his head. Telling him they aren't real is not going to make a difference and will just cause him to not trust you. Earning his trust is going to take a lot of patience. When people have abnormal experiences the first thing they do is learn not to talk about them.

Neopaganism itself is very cool, I sugest Drawing Down the Moon by Margot Adler for a very good anthroplogical assay of the neopagan movement. One warning about thirty percent of neopagans ahve a major mental illness. And many of them are obsessed with 'witch wars'.

I am sorry if I have come off preachy or condecending. I offer my apology if I have. Get your son to an opthmologist if you can. Convincing him to take treatment would be impossible, he would have to make the choice himself.

 

[coalesce]

First let me preface this by saying I also don't have children, so I realize that any advice I give should be taken with a grain of salt.

That being said, I'd like to know what it is that your son feels you "don't get." What life experience don't you have that he does? Does he really think that he has a handle on something that you don't? And if so, what is it? And what led him to this epiphany that seems to have eluded you, your wife, and every other significant adult in his orbit?

My first girlfriend in high school had a best girlfriend that was heavily into this stuff, as was her mom. I admit, I was a bit into this as well, but not nearly on the level they were (they also saw spirits and such). Even then, I knew they were deluding themselves, but seeing as how I didn't want to lose my girlfriend's affections, I didn't speak my mind. I don't regret my decision then, as the end result would've been the same (we would have broke up and her friend's family would still be delusional). But that's with the advantage of 20-plus years of hindsight. For you, unfortunately, this is the here and now.

I feel that you said the absolute right things (bravo for your candor), but the wrong way. Perhaps you and your wife can do the "good cop/bad cop" routine. Have her calmly ask him for evidence of these spirits, and have her explain why belief in these things can be a dangerous path. Point out the obvious ramifications of an obsession with the "unseen world" (unhireability later in life), ask him what positive things he hopes to get out of shamanism. I would tend to think that his motives for this conversion have more to do with getting attention than a rejection of organized religion. If you don't think that your wife can reach him, perhaps a third party--an older cousin, an uncle, perhaps even have him post on the board--can reach him. Clearly this can become a dangerous thing and he has to be made to understand that this.

I wish you the best and hope to hear some good news soon.

Michael

 

[The GM]

Hey there,
I am a parent, so I'll weigh in for what it's worth. Kids will do what their friends are doing, particularly if they really feel they need peer approval. I think sometimes a bombshell like this is part of the maturing process (see Mom and Dad, I'm an adult, making adult decisions! Respect me, damn it!) Sometimes it's a sign of trouble down the road.
Have you had his brothers talk to hi about this stuff?
I am significantly older than my 19y/o brother, and when my folks are at a loss at moments like you've just described, they send me in. Not to spy or pry, but to make sure everything is ok. My bro will talk to me about stuff he wouldn't dream of chatting w/ our 'uncool' parents about. I act like a buffer. My bro can vent to his heart's content, and my folks trust my judgment when it comes to knowing if there's a real problem or not.
Have you thought about having one of your older sons take Matt for a guys night out?

 

[Gulliamo]

As my children are still too yong to face this I am really interested in hearing how this turns out so that I may learn from you. Please keep us updated as the story unfolds.

That being said I would like to "second" a couple of afore mentioned points.

1. Definitely do not mix the financial and spiritual conversations. The economics tend to work themselves out when outside sources enabling the dependency are cut off.

2. Outside intervention may be just what the doctor ordered. Older brother, trusted friend, coach, teacher, counselor, etc.

3. A drug test, even a clandestine operation, may be in order.
http://www.psychemedics.com/
$60 bucks and a snip of hair (even from a brush) is all it takes to know everything since his last haircut. This is won’t inspire any confidence or trust but it may be worth the peace of mind.

Good luck from one driver to another.

 

[Roadtoad]

Actually, as things are working out, my wife is having better luck than I am getting my son to open up. So, the advice against raising my voice once more comes up here. (I know, I know...)

Part of what's going on with Matt is he's ADHD. In order to cope, we homeschooled him and his brother, and we left a lot open for him to explore. For his English classes, for which he had a tutor provided by the charter school we worked through, Matt chose to look into Myths and Legends.

Unfortunately, my highly intelligent son, (his IQ is somewhere in the 140s), with his remarkable imagination, seems to have diverged from the main road, if you will.

We're working on it. Thankfully, I have insisted on getting to know my sons friends. They're nice kids, and the one thing that keeps coming up is they want to avoid drugs. I don't know the why or how of it, but they just seem to want to avoid anyone who's involved in any sort of chemical dependency, and that even includes beer, believe it or not. (I have to admit, when you offer a 21-year-old a bottle of Sierra Nevada Pale Ale and he turns you down, it's a surprise.)

The beliefs seem to be the one thing that short circuits things for them. I don't know, it's something I need to take a longer, harder look at.

 

[Suggestologist]

The beliefs seem to be the one thing that short circuits things for them. I don't know, it's something I need to take a longer, harder look at.

Hmmm... How, in particular, does it short circuit things for them?

Or you could do some RET type thinking:

What are you afraid of, happening to them?

Is there any objective evidence of that happening now? If a video camera was recording, what would it show?

How do you feel about what it shows?

Do your feelings match the reality?

 

[LostAngeles]

Actually, as things are working out, my wife is having better luck than I am getting my son to open up. So, the advice against raising my voice once more comes up here. (I know, I know...)

Part of what's going on with Matt is he's ADHD. In order to cope, we homeschooled him and his brother, and we left a lot open for him to explore. For his English classes, for which he had a tutor provided by the charter school we worked through, Matt chose to look into Myths and Legends.

Unfortunately, my highly intelligent son, (his IQ is somewhere in the 140s), with his remarkable imagination, seems to have diverged from the main road, if you will.

We're working on it. Thankfully, I have insisted on getting to know my sons friends. They're nice kids, and the one thing that keeps coming up is they want to avoid drugs. I don't know the why or how of it, but they just seem to want to avoid anyone who's involved in any sort of chemical dependency, and that even includes beer, believe it or not. (I have to admit, when you offer a 21-year-old a bottle of Sierra Nevada Pale Ale and he turns you down, it's a surprise.)

The beliefs seem to be the one thing that short circuits things for them. I don't know, it's something I need to take a longer, harder look at.

I spent a lot of time in the Myths and Legends department as a kid and was essentially brought away from the "woo" by Frazier's The Golden Bough. I'm sure there are better works on the same topic by now that aren't as dry or potentially offensive (though I can't recall twinging at any part of the book, it is Victorian).

You can always try and encourage that aspect of his interest in a more "patterns of folklore" kind of way.

 

[Roadtoad]

I spent a lot of time in the Myths and Legends department as a kid and was essentially brought away from the "woo" by Frazier's The Golden Bough. I'm sure there are better works on the same topic by now that aren't as dry or potentially offensive (though I can't recall twinging at any part of the book, it is Victorian).

You can always try and encourage that aspect of his interest in a more "patterns of folklore" kind of way.

I like that. I'll look the book up.

 

[Z]

OK, for what it's worth, I'm adult ADHD, with an IQ over 140, who 'saw spirits' when I was 17. I am today a house-husband and Pagan Priest (fully accredited, BTW, unlike all these ULC-wanna-bes out there).

Here's my take:

Your son, being incredibly intelligent and imaginative, has witnessed things that you cannot or will not see. These things don't fit with the mainstream, so he's reluctant to mention them for years. However, his fascination with this largely unseen world is bubbling over.

He's at the point now where his future is uncertain and he has to make some big decisions. He's also at a point of spiritual vulnerability, so his exposure to neopaganism is a fascinating path that links a possible future with his experience.

Just as with any religion, if he's really interested in becoming clergy, direct him to the proper resources. If his interest is Wicca, I suggest the on-line WitchSchool.com, which will not only allow him to earn proper credentials as a Priest, but will also teach him religious tolerance, something very few Wiccan schools offer. If his interest is in shamanism, I suggest finding an Indian reservation and scheduling time with the local Shaman to assess the lad. But in any case, there are several things you should NOT do:

1) Do not allow him to claim that these 'spirits' he sees are demons or Satan - such things are manifestations of Christianity, not of Wicca or Shamanism. If he wants to fight Satan, send him off to become a Christian priest somewhere.

2) Do not deny that he is seeing 'something' - I never did learn what it was that I was seeing, and by 19, I wasn't seeing them anymore. I've considered the very logical possibility that I was experiencing some sort of side-effect of hormones from growing up, and frankly since our vision is very limited in wavelength, I always think it's possible that there are those capable of seeing slightly outside of the conventional energies anyway. Nonetheless, if he's a generally honest kid not given to fantasies and lies, then what cause have you to not believe him?

3) Don't equate religious/spiritual beliefs with success in life. I spent 11 years in the military, raising my family, generally being very successful in what I did. That I'm now a house-husband isn't a measure of success or failure, since I chose to do this to be close to my kids (and to give my wife the change of pace of working). But the fact that I COULD choose to do this is at least some indicator that I'm successful enough. Meanwhile, I'm a fully accredited Priest through the Correllian Nativist Tradition, and spend a portion of my time fighting religious intolerance and battling the ignorance of both the Deist and the Atheist wherever I can. I apply logic and reason where applicable, and cater to the spiritual needs of those that have spiritual needs without trying to convert or redirect them.

4) Don't assume that all neopagans are like your son's friends. The fact is, most modern Witches come in several varieties:

A) The Pseudo-Pagan/Goth. Dresses in weird clothes (Black in general), uses lots of silly hand-signs, lights candles and incense a LOT and may threaten to curse you. Rarely employed for long and has no idea what the Wiccan Rede is or means. NOT A TRUE WITCH.

B) The Wanna-Be/Read-A-Book: May have picked up a book by Silver RavenWolf or Ray Buckland and thinks they 'know' Witchcraft. Tends to mix up Wicca with Ceremonial Magick and thinks that all Witches perform skyclad (nekkid).

C) The Traditional/Hereditary In-Your-Face Witch: Also Gypsy Witch, Born Witch, Etc. Makes lots of claims about fairies, Little People, and pesky spirits. May cast spells using common household ingredients, but never casts the same spell the same way twice. Dresses like a Gypsy or charter member of the SCA. Probably comes from (or claims to come from) a long line of traditional Witches who 'knows what they know' cuz 'Gramma taught me so'. May disagree violently with others about the Faith in general, and prone to heavy doses of superstition.

D) The Internet Witch. Also called the Drama Queen. May spend hours arguing with Christians and posting long, melodramatic articles about persecution of Wiccans. Knows more than most about Wicca, but likely never ACTUALLY practices. Banned from many Pagan boards.

E) The Self-Taught, Self-Initiated Wiccan Priest (a.k.a. Charismatic Cult Leader): Dangerous in all forms, this sort of false Pagan is using Wicca as his or her gateway to More P***y. Probably will initiate you for a small fee ($500 minimum) and lots of sex. Founds churches with official-sounding names, like the Roman Caesarian Church, that twist religions all around. DANGEROUS AND TO BE AVOIDED AT ALL COSTS.

F) The True Witch: Dedicated to the Wiccan Rede, but looks, talks, and acts JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE. May burn candles and incense on special occasions, but may not. Knows that the best spells are never spoken or acted out (like silent prayer - which is exactly what spells are, prayers), and knows that all of us, except the Atheists, of course, worship the EXACT SAME ESSENCE - Witches like to call it Gods and Goddesses, but know that it's the same as the Christian God and the Muslim Allah, just in a different form.

Anyway, this goes ON AND ON - And sadly, the more obvious witches are those that are least true. So don't judge all of Neopaganism on your son's friends.

..... whew, too long-winded.

 

[coalesce]

Roadtoad:

I'm very happy to hear that you and your wife are making peace with your youngest son. And the fact that your son and his friend's are strict teetotalers shouldn't be that big of a surprise. All my friends from his school and college were that way as well. And we all went to art schools in the '80s, where the biggest form of recreation was seeing which would get you higher: peyote or turpentine.

zaayrdragon:

Excellent post, and not at all long-winded, but very articulate and informative. What I would like to know is what did you see and how did you attribute it to your hormones? What was your parents' reaction to your expperiences? Since you're writing from past personal experience and you are, in effect, posting a lot of what Roadtoad's son is going through right now, I'd be very curious to know.

Thanks!

Michael

 

[Z]

Well, as I recall, my first unusual vision was in the form of 'auras' - specific, multi-colored hazes that existed around people, most animals, some plants, and all electronic objects. For several years (as I recall, this went back to my earliest puberty, around 11 I believe) I assumed I was seeing 'auras', and at times found auras where no one was present.

Eventually, this faded but I was soon seeing vague, hazy images from time to time, and from place to place, which I attributed to ghosts or spirits.

However, as I look back, I believe it is entirely possible that I was suffering from an unusual kind of visual shift caused by slight chemical changes throughout the body (as a result of hormones from puberty). How, exactly, these could cause actual phase-shifts in visual perception is one I'll leave scientists to determine, but what made sense is that I might have been picking up (faintly) the presence of UV light or biomagnetic energy or some other similar power. Since electronics also 'hazed' on me, I find an electrical or UV answer likely.

Also, considering the wonderful ability the human mind has to accomodate experiences, it's also likely that I was somehow 'feeling' or otherwise detecting these fields, and my brain was interpreting them as 'auras'.

Since this visual perception was unique to the years of my puberty, the only difference physiologically in me then was all the changes of puberty and hormones. Mentally, my 'preteen and teen state of mind' didn't change much until I was over 25, but my visual perception of 'auras' never went much past 19.

What I now 'see' is, as far as the various 'visions' I perceive, are as often as not intuitive, non-sensory feelings related to my current beliefs, but are not at all like those I saw in my youth.

My parents, being ground in physical reality (i.e. skeptics), never paid much attention to my claims, chalking it all up to vivid imagination. They never encouraged or discouraged me on this, and since at the time my goals were fixed firmly on entering the Army, they never felt threatened. However, in several very private moments, my mom (a rebellious ex-Catholic Christian) confided that she often saw 'ghosts' when she was a teenager; and my father, although firmly grounded in reality, was proud to explain to me that he was from a long line of Apache shamans (although he studied electronics and mechanics, rather than Dreamworking and Divination).

Luckily, my parents held the view that my life was my own, and succeed or fail, I had to do it on my own. Granted, they didn't approve of some of my choices, but they never stepped in the way, and I learned so much on my own that I might never have learned under their protection.

One of the other things my parents often explained, was that no matter what I wanted from life, that I should strive to be happy. We often struggled for the basics - rent, food, medicine, clothes. We were poor, sometimes extremely poor, but my father never pushed me to go to college, or to get my mechanics degree, or anything like that. Instead, my parents pushed me to do what made me happy, because life is too short and uncertain to waste it trying to 'get rich'.

Anyway, that's what my experience was like.

 

[Dancing David]

Zaay'dragon:

Um you left out a lot of kinds of the witches but the oath won't let me lampoon them!

I really don't like it when people use the traditions of other cultures to just repeat the catholic of protestant traditions of intolerance and bigotry. Nuff said.

But you left out a very important part of the modern witch movement, one of my initiators is beloved of Witchcrap and she had a love of tacfky ritual items just to remind her of the humor in life.

So there is this other category of

G. The Black Lighters/ aka The Galloping Sceptics, and while most other parts of the traditions will not recognise them we, do exist.

And I have met many a self intiated and self taught witch/shaman who does not meet your definition! There are unscroupulus people every where, I have met some very dangerous and controlling people who are not self initiated, and some of the wisest people I know are self intiated! So while I understand what you are talking about I respectfuly disagree, being self initiated and self taught is no worse that any other . It is the person not the schooling.

I would also add that there are many flavors and varieties of shamanism, and having met many who have studied in the Native American traditions of Mexico, it is sometimes difficult for USers to work in a nother culture, and so for some it is better to generate a new shamanic culture.(My father knew Carlos Casteneda in grad school, and others, it is not uncommon for a gringo to go through initations and not have them 'take' because of the cultural boundaries)

 

[Dancing David]

On this subject of what children are like who are drawn to the occult, I will relay a little of my own childhood.

No ADD/HD , but I am and was definitly Schizotypal and OCD. I grew up immersed in a world of symbolism, for one my mother is an english literature person and my father an athropologist. So I grew up with parents who spoke in a language of symbolic representation, I lived in Mexico for four years and grew up familair with most of the major sites in highland Mexico.

My whole life I have always had a boundary problem between myself and the world. Whatever I see I project myself into it, I always over empathise with people. So for me every object is endowed with soul and I relate to it on some level, be it a rock or a twig, cat, bird , dog, whatever, i have this msytical attachment to it.
I have always been flooded by emotions and overly empathetic to other people. Made me quite a people pleaser but I could always feel other people's emotions.
Then there was the magic, for me the world has always been a place of symbolic exchange , where every moment is a balance and an aknowledgement of the give and take in the fabic of the world. So as I child I had a very complex system of ritual and mystic sysmbols. Mist, clouds, sunshine, rain, trees, plants , animals, events. They all had meaning and fit into a language that the universe spoke to me with.
Then there were the strange beliefs, which were culturaly apporpriate, I thought that I could heal through prayer, if I fasted long enough I would be able to walk on water and that if I turned my life over to god, I would follow in the footsteps of Jesus, albeit a very pagan Jesus. I had a very strong belief in spirits, I never saw them, but I could feel them. The spirits of plants and animals, the spirits of places are the strongest.
This all got much stronger as puberty began, the thoughts, the feelings and the sense of conection only intensified, and it made life very difficult at times. It is very difficult to live your life feeling that veery moment has some deeper symbolism, that the universe is always talking to you. And when you feel that he choices you make can influence the course of the world , it becomes very stressful.
But upon reading about witchcraft and ritual magic I immedeatly knew that this was a way to deal with who I was. I already had the life, I just learned how to interact and control it. I learned how to move through and interact with the symbolic world I lived in, and most importantly I learned how to bound and ward the spiritual from the mundane, so that I can have an interaction and not have all the luggage weighing me down.

 

[Z]

Dancing David,

Please note I did say,

Anyway, this goes ON AND ON - And sadly, the more obvious witches are those that are least true. So don't judge all of Neopaganism on your son's friends.

meaning the list of PAGANS goes ON AND ON- I was just touching on a few of the more evident ones. (And by saying True Pagan or True Witch, I was NOT asserting they are the only RIGHT witches - only that they believe themselves to be true and are often looked at by others to be true as well.

After all, any belief system is true for he/she who believes it.

 

[Roadtoad]

Just got back from a trip with Matt to Home Depot. Hang on for a shift in direction...

It's interesting what you can find out when you have a chance to shut up and let your son speak for himself. In our neighborhood, we've lost at least three kids, one to medical malpractice, another to a drunk, one more to an old fart from Alaska visiting friends, who violated the terms of his driver's license and tried to drive after dark, in spite of his cataracts. (The last one really gets to me: the girl he ran over was 15, had a whole life ahead of her, did well in school, and yet, the idiot got off with probation, because "he's suffered enough.")

Matt didn't attend the funerals for any of the kids, and it has only been made worse by my mother's insistence that my sons were NOT to attend their grandfather's funeral back in 2000. Nor were we permitted to come to his interment.

Pastors, I'm learning, are pretty much a joke in this department. If you're the grieving child of a parent who spent their life in the church, they have plenty of nice things to say. On the other hand, when you're dealing with kids who are trying to get over the death of a peer, they're not much help. At all.

I don't understand why I needed to give Matt permission to grieve, but that's part of what's going on. He's mad at God, and frankly, given what he's seen, I don't really blame him.

 

[Yahzi]

As always, Road, your posts are so real.

The only thing I can tell you is this: no power on earth could have prevented you from making your mistakes. Why do you think you can prevent your son's? I mean, he's your son... he's just like you.

You survived, and pulled through. Your boy has you waiting for him on the other side, so it's even more likely he will make it.

Some people just have to get there own their own. If he wastes only 5 or 10 years fooling around with spiritualism, doesn't that still count as improvement?

(Not that I don't sympathize with your feelings, of course: God knows I'd be bonkers if I had a kid acting like that. But then, I'd want somebody to say to me what I just said to you.)

But of course, you're actually listening to him, which I warrant is more than most of us can say about our fathers. So don't assume that just because he wastes a few years he's going to waste 20.