Shakespeare and the Goddess of Complete Being

[Limbo]

Any Shakespeare buffs around here? I just started reading Shakespeare and the Goddess of Complete Being by Ted Hughes and its very interesting but slow, dense reading. Anyway, there are a few mystical ideas in it that I am listing for the purpose of civil discussion. I open up the floor for thoughtful questions or comments on any of the following ideas, either in themselves or in relation to the Bard. As I get further in the book I might toss out more ideas for discussion.

1. The idea of an inclusive system, a grand spiritual synthesis, reconciling Protestant and Catholic extremes in an integrated vision of union with the Divine Love.

2. The idea of syncretic mythology, in which all archaic mythological figures and events are available as a thesaurus of glyphs or token symbols - the personal language of the new metaphysical system.

3. The idea of this concordance of mythological (and historical) figures simply as a Memory System, a tabulated chart of all that can be known, of history, of the other world, and of the inner worlds, and in particular of spiritual conditions and moral types.

4. The idea of this system as a theatre.

5. The idea of these images as internally structured poetic images - the idea of the single image as a package of precisely folded multiple meanings, consistent with the meanings of a unified system.

6. The idea of as-if-actual visualization as the first practical essential for effective meditation (as in St Ignatius Loyola's Spiritual Disciplines, as well as in Cabbala)

7. The idea of meditation as a conjuring, by ritual magic, of hallucinatory figures - with whom conversations can be held, and who communicate intuitive, imaginative visions and clairvoyance.

8. The idea of drama as a ritual for the manipulation of the soul.

 

[Tricky]

Oh, you mean Neopaganism. They borrow whatever deities and spiritual concepts they want from every religion.

 

[Limbo]

Oh, you mean Neopaganism. They borrow whatever deities and spiritual concepts they want from every religion.

...and therefore? Please continue.

 

[Weak Kitten]

Or we can adopt the principles of the Shin Megami Tensei series of video games! I mean, it translates as the Reincarnation of the Goddess and contains the basic principle that all religions are, to some degree, right!

Seriously, you can get your philosophy from anywhere if you really want to. Philosophy is a basic human thing, an attempt to make sense of a world that often seems senseless. The point to remember though is that for each person there will probably be a different philosophical source that speaks to them more then another. For some it may be Shakespeare's sonnets, for others it may be Atlus' Persona 3.

 

[Limbo]

Or we can adopt the principles of the Shin Megami Tensei series of video games! I mean, it translates as the Reincarnation of the Goddess and contains the basic principle that all religions are, to some degree, right!

Seriously, you can get your philosophy from anywhere if you really want to. Philosophy is a basic human thing, an attempt to make sense of a world that often seems senseless. The point to remember though is that for each person there will probably be a different philosophical source that speaks to them more then another. For some it may be Shakespeare's sonnets, for others it may be Atlus' Persona 3.

And where did you get your weak, belittling, drab philosophy from?

 

[the PC apeman]

And where did you get your weak, belittling, drab philosophy from?

I suppose my philosophy is weak, belittling, and drab for pointing out that the above indicates itself a weak, belittling, and drab philosophy.

 

[Weak Kitten]

And where did you get your weak, belittling, drab philosophy from?

That's really mean and uncalled for! I was simply pointing out that there are many sources for personal philosophies and you have to go for a personal attack like that?

I really like that series of games and feel that the most recent ones are very well written. There's no need to be rude and unkind!

 

[Limbo]

That's really mean and uncalled for! I was simply pointing out that there are many sources for personal philosophies and you have to go for a personal attack like that?

I really like that series of games and feel that the most recent ones are very well written. There's no need to be rude and unkind!

Oh really? Then you are only accidentally insulting me? I find post #4 insulting, it comes across to me as a polite dismissal by saying, in effect, "so what? I can find the same thing in a mere video game." Well I don't appreciate that kind of dismissive comment, even if it is polite. I specifically asked for thoughtful comments or questions about the listed ideas, not polite dismissals and belittling of the whole thing and side-tracking onto the off-topic of your video game.

 

[Sledge]

Why are video games "mere"?

 

[Limbo]

Enter the obligatory Sledge post. Pall thee in the dunnest smoke of Hell, vile Sledge! >.<

 

[Sledge]

Please don't try and derail the thread, Limbo. Why are video games "mere"?

 

[Weak Kitten]

You don't even know anything about the games I'm posting about. That's why I included the link. This is a long running series that has always had a really fascinating spiritual bent to it.

My favorite in the series, Persona 3, is all an allegory for the horrible stress that Japanese society is currently going through including joblessness and teen suicide. It uses a video game as the medium but that doesn't mean it's not meaningful.

There were many times when I actually cried during the game, like when a side character had to give up his dreams and leave high school to work and take care of his widowed mother. The mystical under theme is using the archetypes of various world deities to represent the inner strengths and weaknesses of the various characters.

If anything the games are even more overt about their pantheistic nature then Shakespeare. After all, Shakespeare's references to Greek deities were fairly common for his time. Everyone who was anyone back then had to learn Greek and Roman mythology as part of their basic education, it is not surprising that it was used as a sort of shorthand in the plays.

 

[Limbo]

I'm sure it's very interesting. I have seen the hand of the Muse in video games before. They are an art form, after all. I can see the hand of the Muse in Shakespeare, fairy tales, myths, religions, music, and yes video games. Many video games.

Do you have any questions or comments about any points in the OP?

 

[Tricky]

1. The idea of an inclusive system, a grand spiritual synthesis, reconciling Protestant and Catholic extremes in an integrated vision of union with the Divine Love.

That has been tried so many times. Unitarianism for example. And yeah, it's a pretty cool religion, but it does noting to solve the schism between the other sects. And then what if one of the spiritual synthesizers disagrees with another? Presto. Another schism. That's just the way people work.

2. The idea of syncretic mythology, in which all archaic mythological figures and events are available as a thesaurus of glyphs or token symbols - the personal language of the new metaphysical system.

As I say, that is very much like what Neopagans do. And the idea of syncretism isn't particulary groundbreaking either. Many religions borrow from one another.
As for a "personal language", it's almost a contradiction in terms. Language is for communication. If your language is "personal" then you can't communicate with anyone but yourself. How is that useful?
"New" metaphysical system? That's just gobbledygook. As far as I am aware, there are no "metaphysical systems" in place now. There are only beliefs. Some are "new" some are "old". You (Hughes) want to make up a bunch of new beliefs? Knock yourself out.

3. The idea of this concordance of mythological (and historical) figures simply as a Memory System, a tabulated chart of all that can be known, of history, of the other world, and of the inner worlds, and in particular of spiritual conditions and moral types.

There are books and books of these things. Or are you talking about mnemonic devices for remembering the different gods and their associated beliefs and moral codes? Again, if it works for you, go ahead. Don't expect it to have any significant impact though. (I'm not even sure what you mean by "spiritual condition". First you'd have to demonstrate that a "spirit" exists.)

4. The idea of this system as a theatre.

Or a puppet show. Or a mime act. Or a PowerPoint presentation. Whatever works for you. If it's Shakespearian theater though, you're not going to reach about 95% of humanity.

5. The idea of these images as internally structured poetic images - the idea of the single image as a package of precisely folded multiple meanings, consistent with the meanings of a unified system.

Gobbledygook. Perhaps you could explain in small words for idiots like me what you mean by this.

6. The idea of as-if-actual visualization as the first practical essential for effective meditation (as in St Ignatius Loyola's Spiritual Disciplines, as well as in Cabbala)

Again, if that helps you mediate, go for it. There are lots of other ways.

7. The idea of meditation as a conjuring, by ritual magic, of hallucinatory figures - with whom conversations can be held, and who communicate intuitive, imaginative visions and clairvoyance.

Sounds like drugs might be involved. It's the first positive thing I've seen about this system.

8. The idea of drama as a ritual for the manipulation of the soul.

Do you remember a movie from 1979 called All That Jazz? It was essentially Bob Fosse telling his life's story, his idea of death and the spirit world, his spiritual catharsis, through the medium of a Broadway musical. Sounds a little like what you're suggesting. With better dancing.

 

[Limbo]

Sounds like drugs might be involved. It's the first positive thing I've seen about this system.

Might be. But regardless of the method used to achieve an altered state of consciousness, this is the initiation stage where you would begin to glean the answer to #5, as you interact with the internally structured poetic images. Also known as gods. Then other questions and answers gradually begin to click into place, like a jigsaw puzzle, as the internal images unfold along the individuation process ("spiritual quest").

Do you remember a movie from 1979 called All That Jazz? It was essentially Bob Fosse telling his life's story, his idea of death and the spirit world, his spiritual catharsis, through the medium of a Broadway musical. Sounds a little like what you're suggesting. With better dancing.

I do indeed remember that movie. His Muse, or anima, or Goddess, or internally structured poetic image, acted as psychopomp at the very end, IIRC.

 

[Tricky]

Might be. But regardless of the method used to achieve an altered state of consciousness, this is the initiation stage where you would begin to glean the answer to #5, as you interact with the internally structured poetic images. Also known as gods.

Gods are internally structured poetic images? That's going to be a big surprise to a lot of theists. It's a pretty big surprise to me. But I am very dubious of any system that requires you to enter a drugged (or drug-like) state in order for it to make sense.

Then other questions and answers gradually begin to click into place, like a jigsaw puzzle, as the internal images unfold along the individuation process ("spiritual quest").

Do spiritual quests work for people who don't believe in spirits? What time does the unicorn hunt start?

I do indeed remember that movie. His Muse, or anima, or Goddess, or internally structured poetic image, acted as psychopomp at the very end, IIRC.

Yeah, it was a cool movie. But its just a movie, not a grand spiritual synthesis.

 

[Cainkane1]

Any Shakespeare buffs around here? I just started reading Shakespeare and the Goddess of Complete Being by Ted Hughes and its very interesting but slow, dense reading. Anyway, there are a few mystical ideas in it that I am listing for the purpose of civil discussion. I open up the floor for thoughtful questions or comments on any of the following ideas, either in themselves or in relation to the Bard. As I get further in the book I might toss out more ideas for discussion.

1. The idea of an inclusive system, a grand spiritual synthesis, reconciling Protestant and Catholic extremes in an integrated vision of union with the Divine Love.

2. The idea of syncretic mythology, in which all archaic mythological figures and events are available as a thesaurus of glyphs or token symbols - the personal language of the new metaphysical system.

3. The idea of this concordance of mythological (and historical) figures simply as a Memory System, a tabulated chart of all that can be known, of history, of the other world, and of the inner worlds, and in particular of spiritual conditions and moral types.

4. The idea of this system as a theatre.

5. The idea of these images as internally structured poetic images - the idea of the single image as a package of precisely folded multiple meanings, consistent with the meanings of a unified system.

6. The idea of as-if-actual visualization as the first practical essential for effective meditation (as in St Ignatius Loyola's Spiritual Disciplines, as well as in Cabbala)

7. The idea of meditation as a conjuring, by ritual magic, of hallucinatory figures - with whom conversations can be held, and who communicate intuitive, imaginative visions and clairvoyance.

8. The idea of drama as a ritual for the manipulation of the soul.

Did this complete being heal amputees?

 

[Limbo]

Gods are internally structured poetic images? That's going to be a big surprise to a lot of theists. It's a pretty big surprise to me. But I am very dubious of any system that requires you to enter a drugged (or drug-like) state in order for it to make sense.

I tend to forget what its like to be surprised by such things, things which I have grown accustomed to. But yes, gods are internally structured poetic images. Surprise!

You are dubious of any mystical system that employs mystical techniques of altering consciousness? I would be dubious of any that don't.

There is nothing unnatural about altered states of (mystical) consciousness. We humans have been doing it for tens of thousands of years, ever since primitive shamanism. Without that capacity, we humans probably wouldn't even be here.

Do spiritual quests work for people who don't believe in spirits?

Do you believe in internally structured poetic images?

Yeah, it was a cool movie. But its just a movie, not a grand spiritual synthesis.

The fingerprints of the Muse are all over it, hidden from the uninitiated behind a smokescreen of secular mantras like "but it's just a _____".

 

[Tricky]

I tend to forget what its like to be surprised by such things, things which I have grown accustomed to. But yes, gods are internally structured poetic images. Surprise!

So you assert. Good luck finding people who agree with your unsupported assertion.

You are dubious of any mystical system that employs mystical techniques of altering consciousness? I would be dubious of any that don't.

Wow, I guess it's party time every day at the Limbo household. But I've been high a number of times and I would have to say that it is not a good way of providing evidential support for anything. It is a good way of thinking "heavy" thoughts which, under sober examination, are meaningless. But if you're having fun, toke up, bro.

There is nothing unnatural about altered states of (mystical) consciousness. We humans have been doing it for tens of thousands of years, ever since primitive shamanism. Without that capacity, we humans probably wouldn't even be here.

Yeah, and we've been fighting wars since we were primative too. I really don't find the argument that a practice is old to make it convincing that it is true. Most of the old myths are now known to be false. Shamanism is pure superstition. So far, you haven't given me a single reason why your "spiritual synthesis" is a superior way of looking at reality. Okay, the drugs maybe.

Do you believe in internally structured poetic images?

I believe it is a meaninless, made-up term. You haven't even attempted a real definition. You've cited equivalence, (i.e. it is gods) but not a precise definition. It just sounds like new-age BS to me. Maybe if you tried throwing "quantum" in there somewhere.

The fingerprints of the Muse are all over it, hidden from the uninitiated behind a smokescreen of secular mantras like "but it's just a _____".

Show me the fingerprints. Then we'll have some evidence.

 

[Limbo]

Well Tricky, its quite obvious to me that you and I are very different people. I don't know if we can find common ground here. I mean, you are making too many mistakes, I don't know where to start! Your first mistake is you think my assertions are unsupported. They aren't.

Your second mistake, is you are confusing the mystical use of sacred substances in a sacred context with your crude ideas about recreational drug use in modern western culture..."bro". I find that offensive.

And, your third mistake, is you are thinking about shamanism only in terms of "pure superstition" and "mere" myth. Shamanism is not so much a religion, but more of a set of practices and techniques.

I believe it is a meaninless, made-up term. You haven't even attempted a real definition. You've cited equivalence, (i.e. it is gods) but not a precise definition. It just sounds like new-age BS to me. Maybe if you tried throwing "quantum" in there somewhere.


Show me the fingerprints. Then we'll have some evidence.

I've noticed a tendency for JREFers to expect a definition of a god to be "real and precise", and then...what? What then? Are you going to take the "real" definition and write it down and leave it under your pillow for the definition fairy? Because if you believe "precise definitions" are a reasonable expectation, then you might as well believe in the definition fairy.

Your expectation of "real...precise definition" is a mere psychological defense mechanism imo, which shields you against mystical experiences. You've reduced it all to demands for words and concepts and precise definitions, which deep down you know can never be met, and in so doing you prevent, you short-circuit, the mystical experience of the transcendent...an experience which by definition transcends definition.