Seti@home pointless?

[JoeTheJuggler]

Have you even considered this from the alien perspective?

Yes I have. If you like, read my comments on the other thread in the SETI section.

Even a directed signal would have to be enormously powerful. That costs money.

Yes that's a point I've made a number of times. Even if something is technologically possible, there's no reason to assume it is economically feasible. (Check my link about about the argument based on Fermi's Paradox.) Even if it were technically possible and economically feasible there might be no social or political will to do anything like that.

And the paranoids also sometimes say we shouldn't broadcast because it basically tells those evil overlord type of aliens where we live.

ETA: And while we're considering all the reasons an ETI wouldn't send a radio signal detectable by us: it might be that radio technology is a very primitive way of communicating. Already we are using it quite a bit less for stuff like TV.

And what kind of retarded species would keep sending this signal for hundreds of thousands of years just hoping to get a return signal back?

I'm not sure what "retarded" means in this context. I guess you're using it to mean "not very smart".

At any rate, with a technology we don't know about, perhaps a beacon permanently pointed at a nearby solar system might be feasible. Probably not.

Also, there is, as Shadron pointed out, the non-zero chance that we'd spot the needle in a haystack by pointing Arecibo to the exact right spot in the sky at the exact right moment to capture a signal sent similar to the ones we've sent (sent out for a matter of minutes).

Also, as Shadron pointed out, the benefits of the SETI program spill over into other areas (learning how to do fairly sophisticated pattern detection in a distributed computer system, for one).

And the costs are very modest (and not publicly funded). SETI only gathers its data piggybacked on whatever else Arecibo is doing, so there's no opportunity cost wrt to that facility.

 

[AWPrime]

Also, there is, as Shadron pointed out, the non-zero chance that we'd spot the needle in a haystack by pointing Arecibo to the exact right spot in the sky at the exact right moment to capture a signal sent similar to the ones we've sent (sent out for a matter of minutes).

But at some point there are other hobbies that have a higher chance of leading to the discovery of intelligent aliens. Heck a sci-fi writer may have more luck in inspiring people to eventually design a FTL drive.

Also, as Shadron pointed out, the benefits of the SETI program spill over into other areas (learning how to do fairly sophisticated pattern detection in a distributed computer system, for one).

If I remember it correctly, its the other way around.

And the costs are very modest (and not publicly funded). SETI only gathers its data piggybacked on whatever else Arecibo is doing, so there's no opportunity cost wrt to that facility.

Its a hobby, nothing more. I just find it insulting for human intelligence if SETI wants to be taken serious.

 

[shadron]

Its a hobby, nothing more. I just find it insulting for human intelligence if SETI wants to be taken serious.

Its a little more than that, AW. There are some people who make a living off of it. They and their followers are deeply sorry about their blow to your intelligence.

 

[Lonewulf]

Heck a sci-fi writer may have more luck in inspiring people to eventually design a FTL drive.

A sci-fi writer may have more luck in inspiring people to essentially break the laws of physics, than SETI has of spotting a directed communications signal?

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

But at some point there are other hobbies that have a higher chance of leading to the discovery of intelligent aliens.

Such as? (I'm serious, if there is something else, is it not being done because of SETI?)

Really, with the technology we have, there isn't much else we can reasonably afford to do to look beyond our solar system for ETI.

 

[AWPrime]

Its a little more than that, AW. There are some people who make a living off of it.

There are plenty of people who make a living of hobbies. Or weren't you familiar with the gaming industry? (which likely does far more to advance computer technology then SETI).

A sci-fi writer may have more luck in inspiring people to essentially break the laws of physics, than SETI has of spotting a directed communications signal?

Which laws must be broken? Name them.

Really, with the technology we have, there isn't much else we can reasonably afford to do to look beyond our solar system for ETI.

So? The current situation is like having a endless ocean with uncountable amount of islands. However each island is separated from all others by thousands of miles. Now on one island we have a person who just stares at the ocean looking for waves. Waves that might have been created (by people on other islands) through throwing rocks in the ocean. For he know that this can create waves. What he really needs is to invent and build a ocean capable boat. And this was an optimistic example.

As for our technological limits, I experience them was well. I would love to pilot an interstellar spacecruiser. But our present technology doesn't allow this, so I play EVE-Online, but I have enough common sense to realize that the game is a hobby. Even gambling can be a hobby (although it has better odds).

 

[Lonewulf]

Which laws must be broken? Name them.

Under the special theory of relativity, a particle (that has mass) with subluminal velocity needs infinite energy to accelerate to the speed of light, although special relativity does not forbid the existence of particles that travel faster than light at all times (tachyons).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster-than-light

You want fanciful technology that are only barely theoretically possible, and proclaim it better and more likely than actually, you know, being able to detect a directed signal.

 

[AWPrime]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster-than-light

You want fanciful technology that are only barely theoretically possible, and proclaim it better and more likely than actually, you know, being able to detect a directed signal.

You assume that any FTL drive would use the same space-time in which that law applies.

In sci-fi they usually bypass this through some type of altered space-time and as far as we know there is no law that forbids such a solution. The question that remains is: How? We can hope to inspire/motivate someone to solve this issue.

And then we have the SETI hobby, with luck, it would only detect regular signals at several light years.

 

[Lonewulf]

You assume that any FTL drive would use the same space-time in which that law applies.

In sci-fi they usually bypass this through some type of altered space-time and as far as we know there is no law that forbids such a solution. The question that remains is: How? We can hope to inspire/motivate someone to solve this issue.

Yes, science fiction is quite good at "making stuff up", or giving semi-plausible explanations that, quite frankly, just don't exist within our universe or any other. You seem to be under the presumption that if you can imagine it, then it must necessarily be able to come true. That is an optimism that only the most religious can achieve.

Hey, pray hard enough, and maybe the Lightspeed gods will look upon thee favorably.

 

[AWPrime]

Yes, science fiction is quite good at "making stuff up", or giving semi-plausible explanations that, quite frankly, just don't exist within our universe or any other. You seem to be under the presumption that if you can imagine it, then it must necessarily be able to come true. That is an optimism that only the most religious can achieve.

I would advice you to reread my posts or stop using strawmen.

When you inspirire a generation then that generation (and generations to come) will be motivated to see if such a thing can really be done. For example, Alcubierre’s warp drive, took warp from sci-fi concept to thought experiment. A huge amount of work needs to be done before it can be definitely ruled out or invented.

 

[Lonewulf]

Your original point was:

But at some point there are other hobbies that have a higher chance of leading to the discovery of intelligent aliens. Heck a sci-fi writer may have more luck in inspiring people to eventually design a FTL drive.

So you said this in response to:

Also, there is, as Shadron pointed out, the non-zero chance that we'd spot the needle in a haystack by pointing Arecibo to the exact right spot in the sky at the exact right moment to capture a signal sent similar to the ones we've sent (sent out for a matter of minutes).

I'm afraid I can come to no other conclusion that you're essentially tossing out SETI on the off chance that someone develops some FTL drive someday...

 

[AWPrime]

That doesn't follow your previous argument/post.

And have you come to realization that SETI is on the level of a hobby?

 

[Lonewulf]

No, I haven't come to that "realization".

 

[AWPrime]

So what makes you think its more then a hobby?

 

[Bill Thompson]

Before Berkley decided to use the power of home computers to number crunch the data and created the SETI@HOME, I remember seeing a 60 Minutes show about how people were using their lives savings to listen for intelligent radio signals.

The show suggested that it was a lot like a religion.

I think it is. It is also like the Holly Grail of Sci Fi Buffs and if you dis it, they will become enraged as if you are stepping on thier faith.

 

[Lonewulf]

they will become enraged

WULF SMASH!!!!

I am enraged! Rawr!

 

[Lonewulf]

So what makes you think its more then a hobby?

In the same way that I do not consider the LHC to be "just a toy".

With the definition you seem to be using, every single thing in science is "just a hobby" -- especially if it doesn't have a high odds of succeeding promptly.

If you want to define SETI as "just a hobby" to sate your own agenda... hell. Go right ahead, if you want.

 

[AWPrime]

In the same way that I do not consider the LHC to be "just a toy".

With the definition you seem to be using, every single thing in science is "just a hobby" -- especially if it doesn't have a high odds of succeeding promptly.

We are getting closer to your problem. You seem unable to see the difference between, for example, the LHC and SETI.

SETI might take a million years, or it might never produce results. While the LHC will produce some results which will enhance our understanding of the universe. As the LHC can confirm or motivate a revision of current theories.

If people really want to feel useful in helping to discover alien life. Then they should support research in physics, astronomy, etc. A better understanding of our universe might lead to practical communication systems or even drives. But that suggestion isn't as exciting or seemingly direct as SETI.



ps. @Bill Thompson - It's not a religion. Just some members have excessive amount of delusional self-importance.

 

[shadron]

Before Berkley decided to use the power of home computers to number crunch the data and created the SETI@HOME, I remember seeing a 60 Minutes show about how people were using their lives savings to listen for intelligent radio signals.

The show suggested that it was a lot like a religion.

I think it is. It is also like the Holly Grail of Sci Fi Buffs and if you dis it, they will become enraged as if you are stepping on thier faith.

Fine, Bill. Whatever flicks your Bic. SETI is just a grouchy, science fictiony religion, just because you think so. You've built up this strawman to take your abuse, so just party on. Brazil sounds just the place for you to do so.

I was a huge supporter of SETI@Home before I learned of Enrico Fermi's observation and found that he really made sense. I mean, I am with you, in thinking that it would be very cool if ETI was near by. But I think you need to force yourself to reconsider that, given all the evidence, it is much more likely that the nearest ETI like us is too far away.

And I guess you'll never know. Sure it's more likely. I, too, see that as the likely outcome of Fermi's paradox, but there is a difference between being visited and ciommunicating. I don't think I need to "force" myself to believe that there is no possibility at all. To use your absolute belief that there is no life possible on Mars as a gauge, I think you would miss it if you tripped over it.

 

[Disclord]

We are getting closer to your problem. You seem unable to see the difference between, for example, the LHC and SETI.

SETI might take a million years, or it might never produce results. While the LHC will produce some results which will enhance our understanding of the universe. As the LHC can confirm or motivate a revision of current theories.

If people really want to feel useful in helping to discover alien life. Then they should support research in physics, astronomy, etc. A better understanding of our universe might lead to practical communication systems or even drives. But that suggestion isn't as exciting or seemingly direct as SETI.



ps. @Bill Thompson - It's not a religion. Just some members have excessive amount of delusional self-importance.

I think an interest in SETI might inspire someone to start looking at other areas such as you mentioned (physics, astronomy, etc.) and possibly some discovery of life. While it's not really the same, my interest in 1970's matrix quadraphonic sound decoders and modern Dolby Pro*Logic II matrix surround sound decoders inspired me to try and learn about the theory of vector spaces and matrix multiplication as well as spherical trigonometry.