Separated-at-birth twins marry

tkingdoll said:
Yeah, although incest kinda grosses me out, the arguments against it are pretty thin.
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I agree. There are plenty of anecdotal horror stories, but statistically the risks aren't exceptionally excessive.

"Middlesex" by Jeffery Eugenides is a novel which provides a powerful anectdotal reinforcement of the incest prohibition, although that is not the main theme of the book.

The genetic problems which emerge in closed populations are the result of the closed population, not of sibling incest. In other words, the cumulative effect of generations of breeding within a small population, even though there are no sibling or 1st cousin matings, is more likely to express genetic defects than is occasional sibling or half-siblisg mating in a large population.

The question of the legal position of prohibiting sibling mating is an interesting one; if based on congenital defect worries, it seems to be selectively applied only to special cases, excluding matings more likely to produce defective offspring. One might surmise from this that the "real" motive is a manifestation of the sexual attraction ambivalence between siblings.
 
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Count me as another person who has few conceptual problems with the idea of two siblings finding each other sexually attractive. Of course, there are familial taboos and uneven power dynamics that make the whole thing a bit problematic if the siblings are raised together, but in "desert island" scenarios or "separately adopted and raised apart" scenarios, I'm not one to get squicked out about it.

My college roommate, on the other hand, had a huge problem with the quasi-incestuous relationship in The Royal Tannenbaums. Even though the characters weren't genetically related. Even though they weren't really raised as brother and sister.

Now sexual attraction to your ROBOT sister? I can't abide such organo-silicon miscegenation.
 
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Kiosk said:
I can assure you that you'd at least consider it. If you were twins - not just brother and sister, but TWINS - there would be at least a vague resemblance (unless you were Arnold Schwarzenegger and Danny DeVito) to raise suspicions. If you were in a relationship and there was even the faintest chance you were siblings, I'm pretty certain it would play on your mind.
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They are faternal twins - not identical. They did not come from the same egg/sperm and are as genetically different as if they were born on different days, as any other sibling. Boy-girl "twins" can never be identical -only same sex can be identical, however faternal twins can also be the same sex.

As a breeder of purebred dogs, incestuous breedings (read: inbred) - does not in itself "cause" deformities, it may reveal deleterious recessives, but it can also produce incredible strength and beauty. With this in mind - if I found out I was in love with my brother (who would be a faternal twin) - I'd be looking at my pedigree (family tree) - we may very well produce the next pultizer prize winning genius by concentrating our genetically superior genes :-) Ya gotta know your pedigree!
 
juniper_ann said:
I would think that pheromones would tend to keep people that closely related from finding one another attractive.

http://beheco.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/14/5/668

I have heard a hypothesis floated that women on birth control pills (which mimic the hormones of pregnancy) might tend to prefer people more closely related. I wonder if the lady was on hormonal birth control when she picked her husband.
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IIRC,the incest taboo is not pheromonal or appearance related - it is primarily propinquity during the early life stage (to ca. 5/6 years old). Also, IIRC, the first studies I saw were re:kibbutzes and the children in them specifically.:)
 
"How unlike the home life of our own dear Queen!"

They've been running this story for two days now, and I haven't yet heard a note or a word of Die Walkure. Uncultured lot, journalists. The minute I heard this my brain was playing the end of Act 1 -
Braut und Schwester
bist du dein Bruder
So bluhe denn,
Walsungenblut!

And the result of that lot, Siegfried, the greatest hero of the world. (And thick as a brick, but you can't have everything.)

A far as life imitating art goes, this is a good one, but so far I've seen absolutely zero reference to the opera. Dammit, wasn't there even a play on a similar theme, called Walsungenblut?

The risk of any genetic problems in a first-generation incest is barely more than from unrelated marriages. It's only once you get to third or fourth generations that the trouble really starts. Normal for Norfolk, FLK and all that. Animal breeders do it all the time, and the consequences are well known. The point is that as well as concentrating the bad characteristics you also concentrate the good characteristics, so if you are prepared to knock the duff offspring on the head, you also have the chance of some starry show winners. Still causes trouble in the long term though.

It's a shame for this couple, I hope they get over it. I don't see how the story can reasonably be doubted, as the court judgement annulling the marriage, and the reason, is apparently on the public record. The social services people are saying that it pretty much couldn't happen now though, as it's essentially unheard-of to split siblings between adoptive homes nowadays. However, it's raising questions as regards donor egg and/or sperm babies.

A friend who was married under Church of England rules told me that she was told the reason for the "does anyone know of any just impediment - speak now or forever hold thy peace" bit in the marriage ceremony isn't really about him having a mad wife in the attic, it's about this sort of thing. If anyone thinks there might have been some hanky-panky a couple of decades ago which means these two might in fact have the same father, say so now, or shut up about it permanently!

Rolfe.
 
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According to this, it's quite common for separated-at-birth sibs to fall for each other (assuming they meet).

Although the 50% figure seems to be unsupported.
 
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Debaroo said:
As a breeder of purebred dogs, incestuous breedings (read: inbred) - does not in itself "cause" deformities, it may reveal deleterious recessives, but it can also produce incredible strength and beauty. With this in mind - if I found out I was in love with my brother (who would be a faternal twin) - I'd be looking at my pedigree (family tree) - we may very well produce the next pultizer prize winning genius by concentrating our genetically superior genes :-) Ya gotta know your pedigree!
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There has been a great deal of inbreeding amongst the Amish and they have been the subject of study on the issue of inbreeding. They are known to have many chronic health issues because of this and whereas they used to be very tight knit and exclusive they are now encouraging marriage to outsiders.

We personally know several Amish families and it is true--many of them have hearing and vision problems, mental troubles, stunted growth...not that these things can't occur in non-inbred people but it is epidemic in the Amish due to this.

Also, here in the South, you can tell who the "breeders" are. It is obvious

I would rather shoot myself than sleep with a relative. I'm not attracted to "my own kind" in the least. In fact, I am blue-eyed and have auburn hair with a medium/rosy complection. I like men with black hair and brown/olive eyes and dark skin--the mediterranian look. I have a sister who would not go out with a white boy, she liked black men only. My brother-in-law is black and they have children...who will they naturally be attracted to? Black or white? Or will it not matter? I have another sister who took after the Indian side of my family with a dark complection and dark hair but she married a blond....that deal with people being attracted to others like them is bunk.

I think some people are trying to justify being pervos.
 
Yeah, I don't really know what the legal justification for banning consensual incest beyond the "ick" factor.

I mean, if it was someone they grew up with and it caused psychological issues, then sure. But I don't know about people raised separately.
 
I read somewhere (i think it was the apa website) that seeing your parent/gaurdian taking care of someone else is what triggers disgust for sibling incest. thats why non related siblings feel the same sort of disgust as related ones do.
 
nails3jesus0 said:
I read somewhere (i think it was the apa website) that seeing your parent/gaurdian taking care of someone else is what triggers disgust for sibling incest. thats why non related siblings feel the same sort of disgust as related ones do.
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I read somewhere - but I cannot remember where to confirm this, so take it with at least one grain of salt, because it might very well be wrong - that it possibly may have something to do with how you get used to the smell of the kids raised in the same house, and that this smell subconciously makes you think of them as siblings (even when not related) and to most people, that makes the "turn-on" trigger in your brain not work.

Again, let me stress that I might well be wrong on this. And of course, it doesn't have to exlude what nails just said. Heck, they could even be combined for better effect as far as I can tell.
 
MrMonty said:
That's fraternal :), and you're right. Same as other siblings only the same age.

My wife was adopted, and I definitely thought "What if we're remotely related?" I wonder about that with anyone, what with the studies that show some made-up number like %20 of children aren't biologically their father's offspring but think they are. You get one milkman who really gets around to those housewives with hubby's on the same shift at the steel mill... bound to have some of those kids end up together.
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Monty:
"%20 of children aren't biologically their father's offspring but think they are. You get one milkman who really gets around to those housewives with hubby's on the same shift at the steel mill... bound to have some of those kids end up together."

Yikes! My best friend has ten kids that he admits are his. They are 46 down to 11 and with four different women. I always tell him that his kids all need to do a DNA test before they get serious with anyone because there are surely at least a dozen or more kids that he does not know about or admit that could be his. Most of the ones that I have seen look just like him. I actually introduced his sister to one of the teens. His sister did not know that the teen even existed so that was a strange few minutes.:yikes:
 
I have read in several books that studies of kids raised together in Kibbutzim show a strong aversion to pairing up later in life. It seems to be well accepted (for what that's worth) that the effect is real. Whether the "reason" for this is connected to some innate genetic recognition mechanism is speculative- but I understand there is a critical age period. Siblings , or unrelated kids who were raised together while very young, then separated, are normally attracted to each other if reunited after puberty.

I had an odd experience in this line some years ago. I met and was immediately attracted to a woman from my home town. We had a relationship for some time, and each admitted to finding the other oddly- even disturbingly- attractive. The relationship ended, amicably, for complex personal reasons. It was only after various family papers passed to me by inheritance, that I realised she and I shared one pair of great grandparents (or at least a great grandmother- who never married, but had two daughters, we assume by the same father, but we don't know.). A friend commented that she had always thought we were related, because we were very alike, physically- even to things like gestures and body language- a fact neither of us ever consciously noticed, though others did.
 
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My friend works with a guy (Harry) who's in a relationship with his niece; they already have one child together and have resisted all family who want them to split up. My friend says he speaks about it freely (to the people he knows and works with) and his nickname at work is 'Uncle Harry Dad', which he laughs at himself.
 
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