Merged Senator Leahy calls for "Truth Commission"

[sleeplessdwarf]

The truth hurts, and its good to see it hurts you so bad. When you are just as hysterical about investigating Bill Clinton for war crimes in Bosnia, then maybe I can take you seriously. Until then, you continue to prove that you have nothing to offer but left-wing fringe propaganda.

Ok, sounds fair. I believe Clinton should be investigated. I also believe Bush/Cheney should be investigated. I am a republican, and I do not drink cool aid. I prefer sweet tea. You do get kudos for being the most adamant Bush supporter I have ever come across.

 

[dudalb]

Finding a "scapegoat" perhaps. 9/11 (as example) was more about a failure of policies than that of a person.

Investigating what led to US involvment in Iraq is fine, the problem I have is having the investigation conducted by people who have an obvious political ax to grind.
That sort of wrecks the credibility of the investigation I think, to all but the blindly partisan..of which we have a number here on both sides.

 

[DGM]

Investigating what led to US involvment in Iraq is fine, the problem I have is having the investigation conducted by people who have an obvious political ax to grind.
That sort of wrecks the credibility of the investigation I think, to all but the blindly partisan..of which we have a number here on both sides.

I agree. An investigation into a specific issue is one thing. An investigation with a blanket (open ended /vague) purpose is nothing more than a "witch hunt" and rarely serves a constructive purpose.

 

[dudalb]

It is the "laundry list" aspect of Leahy's statement that concerns me.

 

[sleeplessdwarf]

I agree with you there dudalb. Just to be clear before lightning comes in, I do not blame Bush for the extinction of dinos, poison peanut butter and my exwife turning out to be a slut. I do think some things concerning the Iraq war and interrogation methods approved by Cheney should at least be investigated.

 

[LightinDarkness]

Ok, sounds fair. I believe Clinton should be investigated. I also believe Bush/Cheney should be investigated. I am a republican, and I do not drink cool aid. I prefer sweet tea. You do get kudos for being the most adamant Bush supporter I have ever come across.

You must be slightly disconnected from reality. You live in a world where anyone who doesn't go along with a hysterical hatred for Bush must be a Bush supporter. This is not the world of reality. Let me welcome you to reality:

I never voted for Bush. Ever. I do not support social conservatives or social conservative policies. Ever. I am a libertarian - a fiscal conservative and social liberal. Bush is not a fiscal conservative, and as such I find nothing about him to support.

However, I do not buy into hatred and rage because its popular. I know its populate to hate Bush. It makes everyone like you. It makes everyone feel smart. But its not based in reality. I don't hate politicians and call for wasteful government trials to execute a political circus show trial because people desperately want to get off on seething rage and hatred of George Bush.

I know people really want to blame Bush for everything. It makes them feel good - its simple. But reality is not. I would rather my tax dollars be saved instead of filling peoples emotional need to find scape goats. You have already tried, convinced, and hung George Bush in your own fantasies - your fantasies will not become reality, not matter how bad you want it. Why? Because your fantasies are not based in fact, but in political propaganda and myth that the DNC fed you for 8 years.

If you want Bush investigated, you are a partisan left wing propagandist and political hack. If you want to investigate Clinton (Bosnia), Bush (Iraq) and Obama (Israel/Palestine conflict after 1/20), then you are a truther. This is one of the rare cases where a twoofer is at least a little bit more intellectual honest than a normal person. A political hack wants George Bush investigated because they get off on using him as a scape goat and are fanatical followers of the fringe kook left wing. A twoofer just gets off on investigating everyone and coming up with fantastical/false allegations.

 

[Praktik]

Egadz! He's back with more!

You simplify things way too much LightinDarkness. In a way, the manner in which you ascribe fantasies to proponents of Bush adminisration investigations is a fantasy in itself. You just plug people into your formula much the way a truther plugs us into their "sheeple" formula.

You're right to point out you are not the social conservative/fervent Bush supporter you were claimed to be in this thread. That was an unfair assumption. But are you not making similar assumptions about those of us on the "other side" in this debate?

 

[LightinDarkness]

Egadz! He's back with more!

Egadz! Your back trying to justify your left-wing hysterical hatred of George Bush!

You simplify things way too much LightinDarkness. In a way, the manner in which you ascribe fantasies to proponents of Bush adminisration investigations is a fantasy in itself. You just plug people into your formula much the way a truther plugs us into their "sheeple" formula.

No, I can't help the fact that your irrational rage and hatred against George Bush is remarkably similar to the twoofers. Both are irrational and illogical.

You're right to point out you are not the social conservative/fervent Bush supporter you were claimed to be in this thread. That was an unfair assumption. But are you not making similar assumptions about those of us on the "other side" in this debate?

You have to have a fanatical hatred for George Bush to want to waste millions of dollars on a political circus trial. Its not illogical at all to think that you don't have to be a supporter of George Bush to not want to waste your tax dollars to satisfy the delusions of those suffering from Bush Derangement Syndrome.

I never said that you HAD to be a liberal party hack to hate George Bush. Twoofers hate him too, and they are not party hacks - they are simply nuts and hate/want to blame every position in authority for made up atrocities.

But in ether case, the hatred is not logical. But you bring up a good point - it may not necessarily be politically motivated. Like I said earlier - if you want to haul Clinton, Bush, and Obama up for a war crimes political circus then its probably not politically motivated and you are simply crazy. If its just Bush though, then you'd be a left-wing party hack.

 

[Praktik]

Your posts assume I have an irrational hatred.

That is incorrect. I do not hate Bush and co, and am often defending them against those who ascribe "evil" motivations to them.

In fact, I've spent the better part of the last 8 years delving into conservative lore and history in an attempt to better understand their perspective and where they're coming from.

Is it possible for someone to support an inquiry/commission/criminal trial without being the victim of "hysterical hatred"?

Yes, and I'm living proof.

 

[jaydeehess]

So when will Vladimir Putin or Hugo Chavez get a truth commission?

,,or Mugabe, or Castro?

Fact is though that such "truth commissions" are a country's internal affair and have little or nothing to do with any other country. we can all wail on about the need for them but they will only occur when the country is ready to do it.

If Bill Clinton directed US forces to conduct themselves in a fashion that would constitute a war crime then by all means institute a commission to investigate and charge him. (BTW I am of Serb descent on one side of my family)
IIRC the USA had to be cajoled into joining a European led intervention in Bosnia. If Clinton knew that invasion was unwarranted (which would have to be shown to be true) then he is at fault.

It is pretty clear that the USA was the country leading the drive to invade Iraq, the USA who supplied the 'evidence' that Iraq was a danger to its neighbours and the rest of the world and hiding weapons of mass destruction. It is also very evident that this was driven by the top officials in the USA and that there is sufficient cause to susp[ect that the evidence produced was incorrect and that the top officials pushing for invasion knew it was at best, suspect. It is quite obvious that Rumsfeld was incompetant to be Sec of Defense. Incompetance is not a war crime though. However on the subject of torture he and Cheney and Bush all are on record condoning its use. Furthermore he did not have USA/coalition forces secure the country in the immediate aftermath of the invasion which contributed to the sectarian and anarchistic turmoil there that has cost 100,000 civilian lives. (How many could Hussein have killed in the same time period? Is anyone better off now?)
Water boarding was torture and a war crime when the Japanese used it 60 yrs ago so I would assume that it still is.

I do not believe that I am drinking any left wing kool-aid to believe as I do. I certainly am not a Democrat given that I am Canadian. I voted "Conservative Party" in the last Fed election. I do feel that those who make excuses for the GWBush administration though could be construed as having partaken of such a beverage.

ETA: put me down as well for not having any irrational hatred for GWB. He was simply and solely though, IMHO, the worst person to hold the office of POTUS that you all have ever put there(TWICE!).

 

[sleeplessdwarf]

If you want Bush investigated, you are a partisan left wing propagandist and political hack. If you want to investigate Clinton (Bosnia), Bush (Iraq) and Obama (Israel/Palestine conflict after 1/20), then you are a truther. This is one of the rare cases where a twoofer is at least a little bit more intellectual honest than a normal person. A political hack wants George Bush investigated because they get off on using him as a scape goat and are fanatical followers of the fringe kook left wing. A twoofer just gets off on investigating everyone and coming up with fantastical/false allegations.

You, my friend, are the one who has serious issues. I have never insulted you in any way, and you accuse me of not living in reality? I call it as I see it, and you have jumped to every attack on Bush with content and ranted about "unless you do the same to clinton" you are a lefty. I agreed with the need to investigate Clinton, although I never said on what basis, and you proceed to call me a truther? In your world only truthers wish to see their leaders adhere to the same law they are expected to live by? WTF world are you living in? You don't support Bush, yet you defend him as being completely innocent on all possible counts . You think Clinton should be investigated for the same crimes as we want to see Bush examined, but you are somehow the one who had the right for that call? I do not believe in "the gov did 9/11, we faked the moon landing, or CIA killed Kennedy, but I absolutely believe Bush MAY have broken at least one law during his terms. I simply would like to see it investigated and proved right or wrong.

I have never used the option before, but you are truly the reason the ignore option exist. Welcome.

 

[sleeplessdwarf]

Just so we are clear on one more thing. I did vote for Bush the first go around and was thrilled to see him win. I also think he did several things right as Pres, but that is not the topic here now is it.

 

[DavidJames]

Your posts assume I have an irrational hatred.

That is incorrect. I do not hate Bush and co, and am often defending them against those who ascribe "evil" motivations to them.

In fact, I've spent the better part of the last 8 years delving into conservative lore and history in an attempt to better understand their perspective and where they're coming from.

Is it possible for someone to support an inquiry/commission/criminal trial without being the victim of "hysterical hatred"?

Yes, and I'm living proof.

Mr. Darkness gives hysterical hyperbole a bad name. Other then laughing at his simplistic, unsupported, black and white view of others, I see no reason to pay much attention to him.

 

[LightinDarkness]

Mr. Darkness gives hysterical hyperbole a bad name. Other then laughing at his simplistic, unsupported, black and white view of others, I see no reason to pay much attention to him.

Mr. James gives logic and rationality a bad name. It is a good thing for you to ignore the truth and logic, the Twoofers have trained you well on that one. Too much reality is never a good thing for those who are scared of it

 

[LightinDarkness]

Your posts assume I have an irrational hatred.

That is incorrect. I do not hate Bush and co, and am often defending them against those who ascribe "evil" motivations to them.

In fact, I've spent the better part of the last 8 years delving into conservative lore and history in an attempt to better understand their perspective and where they're coming from.

Is it possible for someone to support an inquiry/commission/criminal trial without being the victim of "hysterical hatred"?

Yes, and I'm living proof.

Nope - it is however, possible for you to deceive yourself into supporting a political circus to satisfy your deep needs to use George Bush as a scape goat.

Twoofers do the same thing.

 

[LightinDarkness]

You, my friend, are the one who has serious issues. I have never insulted you in any way, and you accuse me of not living in reality? I call it as I see it, and you have jumped to every attack on Bush with content and ranted about "unless you do the same to clinton" you are a lefty. I agreed with the need to investigate Clinton, although I never said on what basis, and you proceed to call me a truther? In your world only truthers wish to see their leaders adhere to the same law they are expected to live by? WTF world are you living in? You don't support Bush, yet you defend him as being completely innocent on all possible counts . You think Clinton should be investigated for the same crimes as we want to see Bush examined, but you are somehow the one who had the right for that call? I do not believe in "the gov did 9/11, we faked the moon landing, or CIA killed Kennedy, but I absolutely believe Bush MAY have broken at least one law during his terms. I simply would like to see it investigated and proved right or wrong.

I have never used the option before, but you are truly the reason the ignore option exist. Welcome.

When confronted with reality the first thing most people do is put their hands over their head and try to ignore it. No worries though, I will continue to debunk your posts round after round. Its good to see that you've come to the state of running from the facts - after this comes acceptance. We still have to get you through the "denial" stage first.

Your inability to neither read nor comprehend anything that doesn't fit with your hysterically left-wing world view is a testament to living ignorance. I support neither George Bush, Bill Clinton, or Barack Obama being the centers of a political circus in order to satisfy your paranoid hatred and rage.

You probably have never worked a job where you actually make enough money to go pay taxes, but most of us who do don't want the government waste money where it can be avoided. And spend hundreds of millions and possibility billions to satisfy your deranged need to observe a political circus to get off on your hatred of George Bush is a waste of my tax money.

You fail.

 

[Praktik]

Nope - it is however, possible for you to deceive yourself into supporting a political circus to satisfy your deep needs to use George Bush as a scape goat.

Twoofers do the same thing.

Ya I guess you're right. After all, we've spent so many long nights sipping fine wines and plumbing the depths of each others souls - you probably know me better than I know myself!

After all that soul-baring and mind-melding I have no doubt that you have more than enough evidence to judge what my deep-seated needs are and the deceptions I've adopted as part of my worldview.

OR

These are things you can't possibly know about given our limited interactions on this board, and your above statements are thus more revealing about your OWN self, rather than someone you have never met and never really talked with on this board until now.

 

[LightinDarkness]

Ya I guess you're right. After all, we've spent so many long nights sipping fine wines and plumbing the depths of each others souls - you probably know me better than I know myself!

After all that soul-baring and mind-melding I have no doubt that you have more than enough evidence to judge what my deep-seated needs are and the deceptions I've adopted as part of my worldview.

OR

These are things you can't possibly know about given our limited interactions on this board, and your above statements are thus more revealing about your OWN self, rather than someone you have never met and never really talked with on this board until now.

Your right - I don't know whether your just another left-wing party hack or a twoofer in progress. Only you can. But the kind of hysterical and fanatical hatred and rage you must have to support a political show trial to get off on your irrational feelings makes you one or the other.

I didnt join JREF to deal with those suffering from Bush derangement syndrome or twoofers - if I wanted to do that, I'd post in the politics or 9/11 conspiracy forum. So I'm just going to ignore the thread, and let the Bush derangement sufferers and twoofers have a Bush bashing orgy without letting the facts interfere.

Just remember - its never going to happen. Barack Obama is a very, very smart man. He knew that in order to get elected he had to rile you up and feed off your irrational hatred/rage at Bush. It worked. But he knows that while its possible to Bush bash and throw out unfounded allegations in a campaign, trying to continue the Bush bashing with a trial will fail because there are none of those pesky things called "facts" to support the Bush haters. As such, no three ring political circus for you - you'll have to just keep fantasizing about it.

 

[Praktik]

Thanks Johnny-one-note..

post = disregarded

 

[Texas]

How can the invasion of another country be attributed to incompetence? When a nation decides to invade another, this is a purposeful, not an accidental event. The US invasion of Iraq was desired and planned years before.

However, a "partisan witch-hunt" can be effective if it leads us to discover things that we would not have known otherwise. For instance, many people claimed that the Republicans were engaged in a "partisan witch-hunt" against Bill Clinton over the Monica Lewinsky incident. This might have been the case, but when Bill Clinton said, "I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky" it was merely a he-said she-said at that point. It was only the evidence that the blue dress provided that was able to end the speculation and to show that Clinton did indeed lie under oath and to the American people. This Republican "partisan witch-hunt" brought out the truth. If the Democrats had their way this issue might still be unresolved. Of course, the Democrats not wanting an investigation was also probably motivated by partisan interests, as well.

So it would be nice if we did have a Democratic "partisan witch-hunt" into the lies, crimes and deceit of the Bush Administration.

In August of 2002 Cheney stated, "Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction. There is no doubt he is amassing them to use against our friends, against our allies, and against us."

What evidence was this based on? He is not only certain that he is amassing WMD but also Saddam's reasons for doing so. This statement by Cheney is similar to the one made by Clinton during the Lewinsky affair, a lie with the expressed purpose to deceive a nation. If Clinton's petty crime(perjury) can be investigated, then the Bush Administration should also be investigated for their crimes(lies leading to mass murder).

It seems strange that so many people want to attribute Bush Administration lies to "incompetence." Were Clinton's lies also due to "incompetence"?

Remember, "Never attribute to stupidity that which can be adequately explained by malice."

Then go for the gold. Have the DOJ convene a grand jury get an indictment against Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld for war crimes and have a real trial with real evidence and real consequences. Bush didn't pardon a single member of his administration so the field is clear.