Merged Senate Report on CIA Torture Program

[Garrette]

Monketey Ghost,

I don't know how to say this without it sound harsh, so I'll just say it.

It would help a bit for me to take you as more than an ideologue if you would acknowledge something as simple as my first post about the misuse of "MI." Something as simple as, "Thanks. I didn't know. I'll be more careful in future, and try to do a bit more research," would not be amiss.

 

[Monketi Ghost]

I think that admitting that torture sometimes works would not be amiss. That's all I'm looking for, a realistic acknowledgement of that fact. People are trained to resist intense interrogation for... some reason, must be.

 

[Garrette]

I think that admitting that torture sometimes works would not be amiss. That's all I'm looking for, a realistic acknowledgement of that fact. People are trained to resist intense interrogation for... some reason, must be.

You've gotten that. To be completely accurate, what you've gotten is an admission of the reality that torture can lead to the utterance of true statements, including those sought after.

What you are faced with now, should you be of a mind to continue, is the huge chasm between that statement and the idea of torture as an effective policy. That is followed by a second huge chasm before torture as a moral policy.

 

[Upchurch]

I think that admitting that torture sometimes works would not be amiss. That's all I'm looking for, a realistic acknowledgement of that fact. People are trained to resist intense interrogation for... some reason, must be.

You already got that. You just aren't listening to what people are saying.

 

[Monketi Ghost]

Let me speak then as clearly as I can.

I was raised to believe torture is wrong, and since, I've grown more conservative in some of my thinking as I've aged. In a perfect world...

I'm morally confused by the issue of torture in military situations with regard to people of no country's army who want to plant bombs. I don't feel comfortable condemning the means investigators use to obtain information because despite the outcry, and what Father Thomas told me about right and wrong, it just doesn't seem so clear anymore.

It's not that I'm morally bankrupt. But it just strikes me as hollow to condemn people who are serving this country using means they were authorized and pressured to use.

I've read that it often if not always produces crap intel. But the time where it does produce valuable information leave me at odds with what I've been taught is right.

 

[Upchurch]

It's not that I'm morally bankrupt. But it just strikes me as hollow to condemn people who are serving this country using means they were authorized and pressured to use.

*sigh*

I think most people would agree that those who are truly at fault are the ones who authorized and pressured for the use of torture. However, the ones who perform torture are not blameless, even if they were "just following orders."

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." --attributed to Samuel Johnson.

I'm morally confused by the issue of torture in military situations with regard to people of no country's army who want to plant bombs. I don't feel comfortable condemning the means investigators use to obtain information because despite the outcry, and what Father Thomas told me about right and wrong, it just doesn't seem so clear anymore.

How are people planting bombs any worse than those who drop them from the sky? You act like there is a big difference, but the only real difference is that it is happening now and at a much smaller scale with far fewer casualties.

I've read that it often if not always produces crap intel. But the time where it does produce valuable information leave me at odds with what I've been taught is right.

The thing is, even when it does produce good and clear intel, that intel could have been produced another way. And, by most accounts, it could have been obtained more easily and with a higher signal-to-noise ratio. eta: and perhaps, most importantly, without becoming villains ourselves.

The question becomes: do the ends justify the means even when the ends can be met with means that don't need justification?

For someone who claims to becoming more conservative, you have adopted a pretty radical position.

 

[hgc]

For someone who claims to becoming more conservative, you have adopted a pretty radical position.

It's funny what gets to be called "conservative" these days. If I was of a bent to call myself politically conservative, I would be pretty pissed that so many people think that means accepting that we should become what we have always abhorred: Monsters who torture prisoners for information or any other purpose.

 

[thaiboxerken]

And I'll bet that not just unreliable information is obtained, but also the truth. So information obtained in an interrogation is unreliable until verified. Why wouldn't someone who'd say "anything" to make it stop not also try the truth?

MG. You have plenty of "theory" here about how torture works. However, the Senate Report is actual evidence that your "theory" doesn't work. You can try to trick people into believing your theory over the evidence, but most of us in the forum are skeptics. This means most of those in the forum will only go with the evidence.

 

[thaiboxerken]

I'm not going to bother arguing with you any more. Big time.

Why? Are they torturing you with logic?

 

[jimbob]

And yet countless people later found to be innocent of anything were also tortured. Amazingly, with torture it's harder to figure out which is which, since people being tortured tell you anything to make it stop.

http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/20...victim-fouad-al-rabiah-is-released-in-kuwait/

Witchcraft

In case it isn't obvious what I was referring to, many people confessed to being witches under torture although it meant a painful death by burning.

 

[Garrette]

Let me speak then as clearly as I can.

I was raised to believe torture is wrong, and since, I've grown more conservative in some of my thinking as I've aged. In a perfect world...

I'm morally confused by the issue of torture in military situations with regard to people of no country's army who want to plant bombs. I don't feel comfortable condemning the means investigators use to obtain information because despite the outcry, and what Father Thomas told me about right and wrong, it just doesn't seem so clear anymore.

It's not that I'm morally bankrupt. But it just strikes me as hollow to condemn people who are serving this country using means they were authorized and pressured to use.

I've read that it often if not always produces crap intel. But the time where it does produce valuable information leave me at odds with what I've been taught is right.

I'm not ready to call you morally bankrupt, Monketey Ghost, and I can understand it's not clear. There are muddied waters in nearly every topic. It isn't your initial stance that bothers me so much; it's your adherence to an emotional viewpoint arrived at through introspection in favor of actual evidence. Apply that to any topic and the slope gets slippery fast.

 

[hgc]

Why? Are they torturing you with logic?

Now that's a stretch (on the rack).

 

[Monketi Ghost]

I'm not ready to call you morally bankrupt, Monketey Ghost, and I can understand it's not clear. There are muddied waters in nearly every topic. It isn't your initial stance that bothers me so much; it's your adherence to an emotional viewpoint arrived at through introspection in favor of actual evidence. Apply that to any topic and the slope gets slippery fast.

Fair enough. I'll have to give the issue more careful consideration.

 

[G6000]

I think that admitting that torture sometimes works would not be amiss. That's all I'm looking for, a realistic acknowledgement of that fact. People are trained to resist intense interrogation for... some reason, must be.

It's a false dichotomy which assumes torture is the only effective method.

 

[Upchurch]

It's a false dichotomy which assumes torture is the only effective method.

or even among the more effective methods.

Repeatedly poking someone in the arm and saying, "Tell me. Tell me. C'mon, tell me." may occasionally provide results. That doesn't make it a useful method.


...except maybe for your own young children, but they have an evolutionary advantage.

 

[Monketi Ghost]

It's a false dichotomy which assumes torture is the only effective method.

No it isn't and no it doesn't.

Never anywhere have I said torture is the only effective method, it would be as silly as saying it never works.

 

[Upchurch]

Never anywhere have I said torture is the only effective method

Then why use it?

 

[Wudang]

Then why use it?

Ignorance and sadism.

 

[marplots]

...assume it's information I can't ask you nicely for and expect to get.

Whatever method you are going to use to check my torture answer (calling the number and seeing if Randi answers), you use that method without torture. Or, maybe you torture a bit and see if I change my answer.

The trick is going to be figuring out when the amount of torture is sufficient and when it isn't.

I don't see why we can't use an MRI or other brain scanning to ferret out the truth, at least as well as simply interviewing or torture. (And, some of those machines have their own brand of torture built in, a plus!)

 

[Crossbow]

Let me speak then as clearly as I can.

I was raised to believe torture is wrong, and since, I've grown more conservative in some of my thinking as I've aged. In a perfect world...

I'm morally confused by the issue of torture in military situations with regard to people of no country's army who want to plant bombs. I don't feel comfortable condemning the means investigators use to obtain information because despite the outcry, and what Father Thomas told me about right and wrong, it just doesn't seem so clear anymore.

It's not that I'm morally bankrupt. But it just strikes me as hollow to condemn people who are serving this country using means they were authorized and pressured to use.

I've read that it often if not always produces crap intel. But the time where it does produce valuable information leave me at odds with what I've been taught is right.

Well, if that is the case, then let me be clear as well.

I have noticed that you keep on mentioning that torture does sometimes produce useful data that could not be otherwise. However, I have also noticed that you have not shown even a single case where such a thing has occurred.

Now then, if you are not actually morally bankrupt torture advocate then you should be able to provide data which shows that torture does indeed provide useful information which could not be provided otherwise.

Therefore, if you have such information then please do us all a favor share this information with us non-torture advocates.

Thanks.