Merged Senate Report on CIA Torture Program

Off-topic, ignore me at will but what pseudoscience are you talking about? Innoculation proponents based their case on empirical observation.

Edward Jenner and the history of smallpox and vaccination
http://http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1200696/

Well, by modern standards, it was pseudoscience. There were no careful controls or rigorous statistical techniques employed. There was evidence, yes, but there was probably evidence that bloodletting and exorcisms worked too.

"I suppose one can see." "One could say." Handy phrases, those. If you can point to a source that supports your elliptical analogy to homeopathy please do.

People survived smallpox by being exposed to smallpox in microscopic quantities from a smallpox pustule. That strikes me as similar to homeopathy, although obviously different in crucial ways. Actually, the development of homeopathy came a few decades after the widespread use of smallpox inoculation, and almost at the same time as the development of the cowpox as a vaccine, so perhaps there really was an influence there.
 
Walter White? Tony Soprano? Francis Underwood? Daniel Plainview? Dennis Reynolds / Deandra Reynolds / Frank Reynolds / Charlie Kelly / Mac? Light Yagami?

Don't know about anybody else, but I think Walter White's or Tony Soprano's characters were reasonably moral. Their actions were illegal, but not immoral for the most part. Killing was a part of their chosen business. Just like it is for a soldier. But they didn't kill innocent civilians.

I already stated their criteria was "We're the good guys because the way in which we've organized our household appears to generate far greater happiness than what family B can or will accomplish". Which is your own criteria, except applied to households rather than countries/societies.

Part of being organized for greater happiness involves not engaging in gratuitous violence. Part of what I like about our culture include the legal protections from harm and theft that are granted to all individuals willing to live according to rules. In particular, the golden rule, which is "do not do unto others what you would not have them do unto you."

Not necessarily. Maybe they want to encourage family B to move out, so they can up their property value. Maybe it works.

That is not a part of the social framework which I believe maximizes happiness. Neither is forcing people to convert to Islam or killing them if they become an apostate.

Even if it were a "negative utility strategy", it's irrelevant. The premise of the hypothetical is that they have much higher utility than family B, not that they are perfectly optimal.

If we keep in mind that the point of the analogy is about Western countries being "the good guys", your objection makes less sense still, because I don't think that anyone would claim that Western countries never provoke other countries. Yet surely you wouldn't argue that "that's a negative utility strategy, so Western countries must not be better off than others".

My point is not that Western counties are the good guys by some objective measure. In fact my point was quite different. They are the good guys by my measure, and that's all that counts for me. If you don't agree you can join the other side or be neutral like Switzerland. I don't need to get into the specifics of comparing one set of moral values to another. Who is to decide whose is better? Well, each of us has to decide, and I have made my decision.

How is this disagreement? I said they have no moral high ground, not that other countries *do* have moral high ground. I agree - great powers have historically had immoral/amoral foreign policies. And they still do. The US is no exception.

Well, I thought you were speaking in relative terms, especially since "high ground" is a relative measure. If not, then of course I would agree that most countries have low morality, relative to people I would consider moral. It is in the nature of the people who end up governing countries, unfortunately.
 
I'm not sure what you're talking about. I'm talking about the enhanced interrogation measures applied, with prior authorization, to a handful of known terrorists by CIA officials.
You should read more about it. Torture was performed with authorization, which is why Bush/Cheney should be held accountable, and it was performed on individuals who were found to be innocent and mistakenly held.

And don't confuse a lack of political will to prosecute with not having enough evidence to do so. Senior Bush officials have admitted to authorizing torture.
 
Don't know about anybody else, but I think Walter White's or Tony Soprano's characters were reasonably moral. Their actions were illegal, but not immoral for the most part. Killing was a part of their chosen business. Just like it is for a soldier. But they didn't kill innocent civilians.

I didn't watch the Sopranos, but I strongly disagree about Walter White being moral. And yet I enjoyed Breaking Bad. So that goes against your "people wouldn't watch shows unless they believe the protagonist to be moral" theory.

Part of being organized for greater happiness involves not engaging in gratuitous violence.

Suppose it wasn't "gratiutous", but done for a specific purpose (e.g. getting them to move out). That fits better with the analogy of Western states engaging in violence, anyway.

That is not a part of the social framework which I believe maximizes happiness. Neither is forcing people to convert to Islam or killing them if they become an apostate.

I'm pretty sure there are no social frameworks that *maximize* happiness, at present. Do you disagree? If not, then it doesn't seem like it presents a problem for my argument.

My point is not that Western counties are the good guys by some objective measure. In fact my point was quite different. They are the good guys by my measure, and that's all that counts for me.

Your own stated measure is what I was working with.

If you don't agree you can join the other side or be neutral like Switzerland. I don't need to get into the specifics of comparing one set of moral values to another. Who is to decide whose is better? Well, each of us has to decide, and I have made my decision.

I'm not talking about who is better. I'm saying the US isn't "good" (foreign policy wise). That doesn't mean I think Syria or IS are good. Assad couldn't reasonably be called a "good guy", but IS, who he's fighting, is probably even worse.

No desire to leave the US. I don't see how my leaving would do anything to prevent foreign policy decisions I don't like from being made/implemented.

Well, I thought you were speaking in relative terms, especially since "high ground" is a relative measure. If not, then of course I would agree that most countries have low morality, relative to people I would consider moral. It is in the nature of the people who end up governing countries, unfortunately.

Yeah.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture_and_the_United_States

The act of torture has been practiced by many countries, groups, govts., culturals, etc., all throughout history. The link above is a pretty good overview of torture of various types by various entities under the umbrella of the U.S. govt.

People agree/disagree with this topic as is typical with emotionally charged topics. We've been doing it for decades.

Below is the google search page with a bunch of vids, articles, etc. that shows CH getting waterboarded. The vids speak for themselves. To use the term 'waterboarding' is a euphemism for a specific type of torture. In other words, sugar coating ****. I'm not taking a stance as to whether I agree or disagree with WBing being done to those people is morally right or wrong.

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=christopher+hitchens+waterboarding+video

I do take a stance that sometimes it is a necessary evil, especially in extremely dangerous times. For those who disagree, think of Jack Bauer in 24 Hours. Or better yet, imagine yourself in a situation where your wife, daughter, etc. is going to be killed if you or the police can't get to them in time. But suppose you were able to find one of the culprits and you had him alone in your basement with a pair of vice grips, a blowtorch, some nails and a hammer, what would you do?

ANd then it turns out he was totally uninvolved and just a person of the wrong color walking down the street, still you did nothing wrong. And when his family comes after you clearly they are doing nothing wrong to torture you as well. Blow torches all round, MMM smells like roasted testicles...
 
As you are invoking early American history. How many people talked after torture in Salem?

For bonus points, what proportion were telling the truth?

Wait you don't think those people actually consorted with the Devil? Of course none of those forced confessions lead to the exicution of the person being accused. It was only those who didn't confess after torture who got executed.
 
I thought I would bump this thread because I think people's attitudes toward torture depend upon their proximity to a disgusting terrorist attack. The Paris attack is still raw, and I wonder if any of our moral absolutists have any creeping doubts about their moral absolutism.

If, for example, the alleged mastermind of the Paris attacks is captured, would enhanced interrogation techniques be justified? What do you think the French will do? Personally, I suspect the French will torture the **** out of him, but they'll do a much better job of denying it.

Like with certain criminals, such as pedophiles and rapists, I'm all for unceremoniously beating the life out of them, but I don't have any real expectation of extracting useful intelligence out of a terrorist as I'm making his head one with the ground.

As the U.S. program illustrated, a whole bunch of manpower and money was spent chasing down false leads that the person being tortured said because he wanted the pain and discomfort to stop and thought what he was saying was something his torturers wanted to hear.
 
I take it we're done with this thread until the next opportunity to appeal to people's emotions instead of their rationality comes around?
 
I take it we're done with this thread until the next opportunity to appeal to people's emotions instead of their rationality comes around?

It was not an appeal to people's emotions, but rather an appeal for an understanding of people's emotions and an understanding of the milieu in which certain actions took place. Some people become very sanctimonious and judgmental when they feel comfortable and secure, even though they behave much differently when faced with a tangible threat. Ten years on from the immediate aftermath of 9/11, it is easy to boast about how silly and fearful everybody was about the threat of terrorism, but in part this is due to a cognitive bias (hindsight bias), which is perhaps canceling out the fear derived from another cognitive bias (availability bias). Perhaps the war on terrorism is an irrational overreaction, and perhaps it isn't. I don't actually know the answer. When you're dealing with "man-made disasters," a statistical analysis can be misleading, since there is the potential for positive feedback. I do have confidence in the following prediction, however. If a man-made mass casualty event (e.g. 100,000 deaths or more) ever happened in the US, we would become a police state, and people like Rand Paul would probably be laughed out of town or beaten to death. So even though 100,000 deaths might seem like small potatoes relative to a population of 320 million (in which there are 140,000 deaths per year due to unintentional injury, another 40,000 due to suicide, and another 15,000 due to homicide), the impact on our civilization would be dramatic.

In any case, the attack in Paris sort of freshens up and sharpens our understanding of what life was like immediately after 9/11. Maybe somebody who lives in St. Louis, Missouri doesn't quite feel it as poignantly as somebody who lives in New York, or especially Paris, but I suspect there are some people who have changed their views based on a new appreciation of the stakes. Admittedly, most of them are probably French. Monsieur Hollande seems to have turned into a pitbull overnight. I doubt that out of sight of the cameras, he will still be wearing any gloves.
 
It was not an appeal to people's emotions, but rather an appeal for an understanding of people's emotions and an understanding of the milieu in which certain actions took place. Some people become very sanctimonious and judgmental when they feel comfortable and secure, even though they behave much differently when faced with a tangible threat.


I'm honestly still having trouble understanding your motivation in continuing to argue a premise that clearly, at least on this forum, has been shown to be unsupported. Myself and others would appear to be as "sanctimonious and judgmental" with regard to torture as we were before the Paris attacks.

Perhaps you should go talk to some Parisians if you wish to prove your point. Or perhaps make an attempt to understand your own emotional need to pursue this belief of yours.
 
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It was not an appeal to people's emotions, but rather an appeal for an understanding of people's emotions and an understanding of the milieu in which certain actions took place. Some people become very sanctimonious and judgmental when they feel comfortable and secure, even though they behave much differently when faced with a tangible threat. Ten years on from the immediate aftermath of 9/11, it is easy to boast about how silly and fearful everybody was about the threat of terrorism, but in part this is due to a cognitive bias (hindsight bias), which is perhaps canceling out the fear derived from another cognitive bias (availability bias). Perhaps the war on terrorism is an irrational overreaction, and perhaps it isn't. I don't actually know the answer. When you're dealing with "man-made disasters," a statistical analysis can be misleading, since there is the potential for positive feedback. I do have confidence in the following prediction, however. If a man-made mass casualty event (e.g. 100,000 deaths or more) ever happened in the US, we would become a police state, and people like Rand Paul would probably be laughed out of town or beaten to death. So even though 100,000 deaths might seem like small potatoes relative to a population of 320 million (in which there are 140,000 deaths per year due to unintentional injury, another 40,000 due to suicide, and another 15,000 due to homicide), the impact on our civilization would be dramatic.

In any case, the attack in Paris sort of freshens up and sharpens our understanding of what life was like immediately after 9/11. Maybe somebody who lives in St. Louis, Missouri doesn't quite feel it as poignantly as somebody who lives in New York, or especially Paris, but I suspect there are some people who have changed their views based on a new appreciation of the stakes. Admittedly, most of them are probably French. Monsieur Hollande seems to have turned into a pitbull overnight. I doubt that out of sight of the cameras, he will still be wearing any gloves.
Your argument falls on all counts. As a rational position supported with facts, experience, and expert judgment, it fails as unsupported. As an analysis of emotions attached to the enterprise, it fails in that it categorizes all opposition as emotionally based. As a defense of spectrum logic it fails in that you afford merit only to your own graph of degree versus (anticipated yet unsupported) benefit merely because it is yours while denying such subjectivity to others.
 
I'm honestly still having trouble understanding your motivation in continuing to argue a premise that clearly, at least on this forum, has been shown to be unsupported. Myself and others would appear to be as "sanctimonious and judgmental" with regard to torture as we were before the Paris attacks.

Perhaps you should go talk to some Parisians if you wish to prove your point. Or perhaps make an attempt to understand your own emotional need to pursue this belief of yours.

I'm trying to stimulate discussion. I never really believed that any of those who posted on the other side of the argument here would publicly change their minds. In fact I would have been shocked if they had. I've never seen them change their minds about anything else after all.
 
It was not an appeal to people's emotions,
The heck it wasn't:
I thought I would bump this thread because I think people's attitudes toward torture depend upon their proximity to a disgusting terrorist attack. The Paris attack is still raw, and I wonder if any of our moral absolutists have any creeping doubts about their moral absolutism.
Why would a rational decision be affected by the proximity of the attack if not because people's emotions are running high?

And, once again, it is not moral absolutism. This is just one of those rare occasions where the most practical solution is also, happily, the most moral one.
 
Your argument falls on all counts. As a rational position supported with facts, experience, and expert judgment, it fails as unsupported. As an analysis of emotions attached to the enterprise, it fails in that it categorizes all opposition as emotionally based.

I don't quite see where you're getting this from. I am not accusing my opposition of being emotional. If anything, I have accused some of them of not understanding the emotions of other humans. In fact, some of my opponents here have made unsupported claims to the effect that torturers must be motivated primarily by sadism (or sometimes by greed) rather than altruism or fear.

As a defense of spectrum logic it fails in that you afford merit only to your own graph of degree versus (anticipated yet unsupported) benefit merely because it is yours while denying such subjectivity to others.

I have never denied that. You are welcome to draw your moral indifference curve in pretty much any way you like. It is a subjective thing to a large extent. I have only argued that such a curve should, from a rational perspective, be upward sloping, and without vertical asymptote.
 
I have never denied that. You are welcome to draw your moral indifference curve in pretty much any way you like. It is a subjective thing to a large extent. I have only argued that such a curve should, from a rational perspective, be upward sloping, and without vertical asymptote.

There are myriads of myriads of applications of calculus, and I've never quite understood why quantitative ethics ought to be among them.
 
The heck it wasn't:
Why would a rational decision be affected by the proximity of the attack if not because people's emotions are running high?

And, once again, it is not moral absolutism. This is just one of those rare occasions where the most practical solution is also, happily, the most moral one.

Perhaps you should read the full post you're responding to. I explained my reasoning right in that post. One reason is that distance from an atrocity, without similar atrocities occurring in the interim leads to hindsight bias. The fact that we haven't suffered a terrorist attack of comparable magnitude means that we feel that inaction was justified. On top of that, many of the things that happen behind the scenes to prevent terrorist attacks go unappreciated.

Another point is that time heals all wounds. The sense of loss and fear and anger diminishes with time. It is why, I suppose, I felt zero satisfaction from Osama bin Laden's death, but if it had happened in the weeks or months after 9/11, I would have felt that an important measure of justice had been achieved. For a similar reason, I barely feel any anger towards KSM, but I feel immense anger towards those who perpetrated the attacks in Paris. This is not an irrational emotion, by the way, it is an evolved one. I have no doubt that there is an important prehistoric survival advantage in allowing time to deaden one's emotions, although perhaps it doesn't work as well in a modern world.
 
There are myriads of myriads of applications of calculus, and I've never quite understood why quantitative ethics ought to be among them.

I guess at a certain level of mathematical understanding, calculus is just a specific application of logic. You wouldn't have a problem applying logic to ethics (or more accurately, morality) would you?
 
I guess at a certain level of mathematical understanding, calculus is just a specific application of logic. You wouldn't have a problem applying logic to ethics (or more accurately, morality) would you?

And 'at a certain level of mathematical understanding' differential geometry is just applied calculus, but I'm pretty sure you don't describe your morals using the surface of a Klein bottle.
 

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