Senate Passes Partial-Birth Abortion Ban

[aerocontrols]

If a fetus dies late in the pregnancy, a D&E might be the only way to remove it. [/B]

The law in question does not ban the procedure in that case:

Prohibits:

Any physician who, in or affecting interstate or foreign commerce, knowingly performs a partial-birth abortion and thereby kills a human fetus shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both. This subsection does not apply to a partial-birth abortion that is necessary to save the life of a mother whose life is endangered by a physical disorder, physical illness, or physical injury, including a life-endangering physical condition caused by or arising from the pregnancy itself.

MattJ

 

[DrBenway]

Aero,

The link isn't working. I tried searching for a text of the law and came up with too much other stuff for me to sort through at the moment. Forgive my ignorance of the actual text.

Case: an 18 year old mentally retarded, psychotic girl living in a group home starts gaining weight. People discover she's about 4 months pregnant. Would she be forced to carry the pregnancy to term under this law?

 

[Doctor X]

DrBrenway:

My medical school class took the oath of "Louis Lasagna," in place of the outdated Hippocratic Oath.

I would not consider the Hippocratic Oath as "outdated" as much as "misunderstood" and "horribly Bowderiz'd." I am unfamiliar with Louis Lasagna, prefering straight pasta dishes.

Nevertheless, in the case you state, understand that an anti-abortionist would consider the proper solution allowing the girl to carry the child to full-term then allowing either it to be raised by the girl's parents, adopted, or sold off to medical experiments.

--J.D.

 

[DrBenway]

Nevertheless, in the case you state, understand that an anti-abortionist would consider the proper solution allowing the girl to carry the child to full-term then allowing either it to be raised by the girl's parents, adopted, or sold off to medical experiments.

Ok, 'nuther twist: the girl is on lithium and other medications known to cause birth defects. To protect the baby, should she be taken off these medications? Her life will not be in danger off meds, but she may be much crazier. She will suffer emotionally off meds.

Here's more info on the Louis Lasagna oath, one of the versions of the medical oath used today:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/doctors/oath_modern.html

Quote:
I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:

I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.

I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures which are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.

I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.

I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.

I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.

I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.

I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.

I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.

If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.

Written in 1964 by Louis Lasagna, Academic Dean of the School of Medicine at Tufts University, and used in many medical schools today.

 

[Doctor X]

Here I am sort of arguing as Advocatus Diaboli for the anti-abortion side . . . they would argue that the potential life outweighs the "inconvenience" to the mother.

However . . . even the more strict anti-abortionists tend to concede allowing abortion in the case of rape or incest, perhaps to prevent Arkansas from exploding [Stop that!--Ed.]. The case you cite would be rape, since the patient is unable to give informed consent for sexual contact.

"Informed consent for sexual contact?" The mind boggles. . . .

--J.D.

 

[aerocontrols]

Aero,

The link isn't working. I tried searching for a text of the law and came up with too much other stuff for me to sort through at the moment. Forgive my ignorance of the actual text.

Case: an 18 year old mentally retarded, psychotic girl living in a group home starts gaining weight. People discover she's about 4 months pregnant. Would she be forced to carry the pregnancy to term under this law?

I found it at The Senate's Webpage Apparently they don't want anyone hot-linking their stuff. Jerks...

Follow the link above,

click "Legislation & Records"

Search for SE 3

select the version passed by the Senate.



I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to me that in your example, there are likely many non-prohibited procedures that could be used. You appear to be more knowledgable than I on medical procedures. Is "dilation & extraction" the only (or even the best) procedure at 4 months?

MattJ

 

[fishbob]

Does anyone actually perform this procedure?

I have not had a chance to confirm, but I was told that this procedure is extremely rare. Which leads to the conclusion that this VOTE is political posturing and is of value only to politicians. The LAW will be of no value to anybody, because it has no application.

 

[Smalso]

I have not had a chance to confirm, but I was told that this procedure is extremely rare. Which leads to the conclusion that this VOTE is political posturing and is of value only to politicians. The LAW will be of no value to anybody, because it has no application.

I think that about puts it in a nutshell. That's what all this ◊◊◊◊ is all about: keeping the religious right happy.

 

[Guest]

I have not had a chance to confirm, but I was told that this procedure is extremely rare. Which leads to the conclusion that this VOTE is political posturing and is of value only to politicians. The LAW will be of no value to anybody, because it has no application.

Partial birth abortions shown increasing.

originally posted by Smalso

I think that about puts it in a nutshell. That's what all this ◊◊◊◊ is all about : keeping the religious right happy.

If the religious right is the only group opposed to partial birth abortions, that says something, and not about the religious right.

 

[aerocontrols]

If the religious right is the only group opposed to partial birth abortions, that says something, and not about the religious right.

The religious right opposes all abortions, but cannot get them banned. Can't even come close.

This bill, however, passed the Senate 64-33.

It seems to me that there are people not in the religious right who believe this procedure should be banned.

 

[specious_reasons]

No, its just more descriptive than dialation and extraction. I am not a politician and I think its a fairly descriptive term to the layman.

Can you think of a better terminology for the layman? Something with no connotations one way or the other.

D&E is very descriptive, assuming you know the definition of "dilate" and "extract". (Not implying that you don't, corplinx)

I have a hard time thinking of D&E as having any connotation. It is the medical term for the procedure. An "abortion" is a D&C, and I'm blanking on what the "C" is. (I am not a doctor, but I married one on TV.)

In response to your orginal question:

Yes it is gruesome, but only because it involves dismembering babies. What's your problem?
Seriously, I have trouble with abortion, I would not recommend it anyone I know, but I think it's a personal decision. These late term abortions give me trouble, and I think that any moral person should not consider one unless the baby is not viable.

If you consider that the baby is not viable, then the question should become: What is the best way to handle its removal? Is bringing an unviable baby to term, then "birthing" it with a C-section, to let it die soon after a healthy way for mother (and father)? What if the dying baby is causing damage to the mother?

So, I think a D&E should be a medical decision, made with full information, between a doctor and the family.

 

[Guest]

It seems to me that there are people not in the religious right who believe this procedure should be banned.

Exactly, so it isn't just pandering to the religious right behind this bill as some implied.

 

[Smalso]

Exactly, so it isn't just pandering to the religious right behind this bill as some implied.

The religious right is firmly behind this bill. I have yet to find one of them oppossed to it. Whether the motivation behind the bill is to pander to them or not, that is exactly what it does. State by state and congressional district by congressional district, the religious right carries a lot of political clout. That's all I meant.

 

[Galadriel]

Per Planned Parenthood's website, only 1.8% of all abortions are done after the twentieth week, and Bill Frist himself admitted that there are "other methods" for terminating a late-term pregnancy. Most states have laws prohibiting elective abortion after a certain gestation period (which is usually twenty weeks, although with some it's as low as 12 weeks; I know New York at one time had its cutoff as 24 weeks). The truth of the matter is that 88% of all abortions are performed in the first trimester, with 55% of all abortions being performed in the first eight weeks.

The anti-abortion gang would have you believe that women who are seven and eight months pregnant are marching to the clinics yelling, "Gimme an abortion!" when the truth is that the vast majority of late-term abortions are done for medical reasons. This whole ban is flashy, true, but in the end it does as much good as banning the killing of unicorns.

 

[Doctor X]

The anti-abortion gang would have you believe that women who are seven and eight months pregnant are marching to the clinics yelling, "Gimme an abortion!"

They are not? Dang . . . Cletus, put away the shotgun. . . .

This whole ban is flashy, true, but in the end it does as much good as banning the killing of unicorns.

What have unicorns ever done to you!!

"God, I'm bored. Might as well be listening to Genesis." Rik Mayall, The Young Ones

Probably should not admit that I am listening to "Duke's Travels. . . ."

So what would you prefer? Gary Glitter? Katrina and the Waves? Creme Brule?

--J. "666 is no longer alone!" D.

Fine . . . most, if not all, of Gabriel's lyrics would have been better if he was on acid . . . .

 

[Galadriel]

Fine . . . most, if not all, of Gabriel's lyrics would have been better if he was on acid . . . .

You mean he wasn't?!?!?

 

[Doctor X]

Someday look up his "explanation" for the lyrics of Supper's Ready. Again, great music but. . . .

I remember seeing them perform live--we were behind the band. I vaguely recall hearing Phil asking, "what the ◊◊◊◊ am I singing?!!" Mike Rutherford told him, "beats me, but the instrumental part we wrote is coming." Then he hit him with the taser.

However, what I do remember is a bunch of lost teeny-boppers wondering why they were not hearing "Sussudio." Looking down at the band as Phil wailed out a 9/8 time, one remarked: "I didn't know Phil Collins was a drummer!"

Remindeth me of a joke I recreated. With an old rock fan I joked, "Was Paul McCartney in a band before Wings?" The man laughed and said, "just a little one."

About five minutes past and a teenager listening added helpfully, "I think it was the Beatles.

The youth today . . . with their hotrods, short skirts, and their rock and roll. . . .

--J.D.