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I'm not sure I'm getting the subtlety of the current discussion on "extraordinary". I've oft written that the evidence required to prove bigfoot would be decidedly ordinary: a piece of a bigfoot would be the same standard applied to the description of any species.

The organism itself, however, would be extraordinary if it possessed even some of the incredible claims made about it, e.g., light-emitting eyes, cheetah speed on two legs, infrasound zapping ability, height in excess of ~ 8', long-distance dispersal without detection, etc.
 
The Shrike said:
I've oft written that the evidence required to prove bigfoot would be decidedly ordinary: a piece of a bigfoot would be the same standard applied to the description of any species.
I agree. There would be nothing extraordinary about it, except that it proved skeptics wrong--something I do not believe warrants being called out.

The organism itself, however, would be extraordinary if it possessed even some of the incredible claims made about it...
I fully agree--any of those traits would be WELL outside the norm for wildlife (in fact, they'd be entirely unique). The evidence for them would be mundain, the same as evidence for any trait within any organism--but the trait itself, lying several standard deviations outside the normal range for its clade, certainly would be extraordinary.

My one objection would be to your statement that height >8' would be extraordinary. That actually would be pretty normal. It's just the height of the species, no more extraordinary than any other height of any other species. It's not even unheard of in hominins.
 
A finger from an unknown large bipedal primate would be extraordinary.

It would send shock waves through the scientific community.

As a category or type of evidence, it might be ordinary, but specifically, it would be extraordinary, imo.
 
My one objection would be to your statement that height >8' would be extraordinary. That actually would be pretty normal.

Some have claimed bigfoots up to 15' high. Where would you put the boundary between ordinary and extraordinary, 10'? 12'?
 
Some have claimed bigfoots up to 15' high. Where would you put the boundary between ordinary and extraordinary, 10'? 12'?

Personally? I wouldn't. I see no value added to any taxonomic or ecological discussion by using the term "extraordinary". At best, it can be used to describe something far outside of the norm (several standard deviations from average for that group) and which warrants examination, but it's an unnecessary word.

Why should I consider 15' to be extraordinarily tall for a species when I'm in the process of describing it? I have no data on the topic with which to make such an evaluation--I can't say if it's normal for that species or not. 15' may be average, or it may be abnormally small, or it may be abnormally huge; I don't know. As I said, it's big for the family, but that's not exactly unheard of in biology (Tyrannosaurus rex was big for its clade as well, and SOMETHING has to be the biggest in any group).

Why should I consider ANY trait extraordinary in a group that hasn't been described? How can I determine what is extraordinary if I'm in the process of describing it for the first time?

As I said, the more insane stuff like light-emitting eyes could be considered extraordinary (assuming it turned out to be true--something I consider impossible) because it's utterly unique in the animal kingdom. A 15' tall mammal, however, is not. There are a few mechanisms known for generating such a beast.

LTC8K6 said:
A finger from an unknown large bipedal primate would be extraordinary.

It would send shock waves through the scientific community.
Again, what scientific value is added by the use of that descriptor? What are the criteria for using it? I've given two: it must be several standard deviations from the norm (which may be a range--I forgot to mention that), and/or it must require some explanation (by which I mean, the use of "extraordinary" is to designate some aspect of the thing worth looking into).

The only value in the term I can see is emotional. It's there for emphasis, to describe personal incredulity. I don't consider that to be a scientific consideration--and we're talking taxonomy here, which is a very precise science.
 
In general, an elephant in my backyard is extraordinary.

For science, it's just an elephant.

The elephant being there is certainly extraordinary.

It's footprints and dung and plant damage, etc., are evidence that it was there. Is that extraordinary evidence?

I think so, because I wouldn't expect elephant tracks and dung in my backyard.

Is elephant dung extraordinary to science overall? I guess not.

I would still call the elephant evidence extraordinary, since it should not be there under any normal circumstances.

What were we talking about?
 
Why should I consider 15' to be extraordinarily tall for a species when I'm in the process of describing it?

I'll respectfully disagree when the species in question is also reported to be so human-like that some claim an ability to carry on human speech and matings that produce viable offspring. The "bigfoot" people claim is out there seems pretty clearly hominin to me, and yes, I would consider a 15'-tall human-shaped creature to be extraordinary. It's not the height that's extraordinary, it's that height (and don't forget the tremendous mass so often reported) on a frame rather like yours and mine.
 
The Shrike said:
I'll respectfully disagree when the species in question is also reported to be so human-like that some claim an ability to carry on human speech and matings that produce viable offspring.
Gigantopithicus was pretty big. Not 15', but likely 8', possibly more. So that part isn't that extraordinary to me. It's kind of strange, but no more so than many other aspects of paleontology or biology.

LTC8K6 said:
What were we talking about?
About the fact that no one has yet given any coherent definition of "extraordinary" that can be used to differentiate between ordinary and extraordinary evidence. Your latest doesn't do so either--what you personally consider extraordinary isn't really relevant here, unless you're basing it off some criteria that can be used to differentiate it from the ordinary.
 
Gigantopithicus was pretty big. Not 15', but likely 8', possibly more. So that part isn't that extraordinary to me. It's kind of strange, but no more so than many other aspects of paleontology or biology.

About the fact that no one has yet given any coherent definition of "extraordinary" that can be used to differentiate between ordinary and extraordinary evidence. Your latest doesn't do so either--what you personally consider extraordinary isn't really relevant here, unless you're basing it off some criteria that can be used to differentiate it from the ordinary.

There's a difference between a giant extinct ape and a giant ape-man, though. A large ape isn't mind-blowing, considering the generally large size of a lot of species of yesteryear, but a giant 8-15 foot ape-man is so extraordinary that it shares a border with lunacy, especially considering how nimble and stealthy it's supposed to be, according to its advocates (fanboys.)

A population of giant, nimble ape-men, eluding science for... well, forever. That's extraordinary!
 
Gigantopithicus was pretty big. Not 15', but likely 8', possibly more. So that part isn't that extraordinary to me. It's kind of strange, but no more so than many other aspects of paleontology or biology.

About the fact that no one has yet given any coherent definition of "extraordinary" that can be used to differentiate between ordinary and extraordinary evidence. Your latest doesn't do so either--what you personally consider extraordinary isn't really relevant here, unless you're basing it off some criteria that can be used to differentiate it from the ordinary.

In your opinion
 
It's subjective, isn't it?

It's perfectly acceptable for me to think a bigfoot finger is extraordinary evidence, and for someone else to think it's ordinary evidence.

I'm not seeing the problem.

Jeff Meldrum clearly accepts very weak evidence, for example. I think his threshold is almost below the term "evidence". To him a bigfoot hand would be the Holy Grail of evidence.

For me to believe in bigfoot, I want to see evidence that I consider extraordinary.

If footers want to believe in bigfoot because a zagnut bar went missing in the night, so be it.
 
We don't know big Giganto was, only how big it's jaws and teeth were. Also, does not any suggestion if it's bipedalism trace back to Krantz?
 
Evidently Dinwar has studied the Bill Munns Gigantopithecus recreation, and found it to be not based completely on fabrications supplied by the Bigfoot community.
 
A creature like this
8s0p.jpg


Living here:
31w8.jpg


would be quite extraordinary.
 
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A creature like this
[qimg]http://imageshack.com/a/img42/3817/8s0p.jpg[/qimg]

Living here:
[qimg]http://imageshack.com/a/img43/6948/31w8.jpg[/qimg]

would be quite extraordinary.

To say the least! That picture is hilarious. I love how the notion that Giganto was very "bigfootlike" is pretty much accepted by every Footer around, they really latched onto that molar and ran with it... "It probably looked a lot like the 'Squatch, real nimble."

Wasn't Giganto supposedly closely related to Orangs? How does that then lead to something like the ape-man we keep hearing about? Extraordinary, indeed!
 
I spent quite a bit of time writing this piece up. The response from crypto-fans on FB. I BEELIEVE there are STILL DINOSAURS.

No hope.
Prehistoric Survivors? They Are Really Most Sincerely Dead

It's pretty clear that natives and explorers themselves made up these stories in many cases. There is a great example I found of a plesiosaur that was described as a water animal, a glyptodon and then a giant sloth. WhatWhat? Talk about rotten reporting.
 
In general, an elephant in my backyard is extraordinary. For science, it's just an elephant.

The elephant being there is certainly extraordinary.

It's footprints and dung and plant damage, etc., are evidence that it was there. Is that extraordinary evidence?

I think so, because I wouldn't expect elephant tracks and dung in my backyard.

Is elephant dung extraordinary to science overall? I guess not.

I would still call the elephant evidence extraordinary, since it should not be there under any normal circumstances.

What were we talking about?

Not if you live in Africa.
 
I spent quite a bit of time writing this piece up. The response from crypto-fans on FB. I BEELIEVE there are STILL DINOSAURS.

No hope.
Prehistoric Survivors? They Are Really Most Sincerely Dead

It's pretty clear that natives and explorers themselves made up these stories in many cases. There is a great example I found of a plesiosaur that was described as a water animal, a glyptodon and then a giant sloth. WhatWhat? Talk about rotten reporting.

Great article.

One of the enduring mysteries in life is why someone will ignore a carefully researched article like this in favor of a blurry photo taken by a known con man.
 
In your opinion

That's the point--evaluations of ordinary and extraordinary are ENTIRELY subjective. I'm the only person who's offered something even resembling an objective test for the use of the word "extraordinary", and that test has been universally ignored. It's emotional, not rational.

LTC8K6 said:
It's subjective, isn't it?

It's perfectly acceptable for me to think a bigfoot finger is extraordinary evidence, and for someone else to think it's ordinary evidence.

I'm not seeing the problem.
Some people want to make their emotion-based opinion into a hard criteria to which other people's evidence must rise. They want to use the pithy phrase "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" to control what kinds of evidence are acceptable.

The Shrike said:
We don't know big Giganto was, only how big it's jaws and teeth were. Also, does not any suggestion if it's bipedalism trace back to Krantz?
Drewbot said:
Evidently Dinwar has studied the Bill Munns Gigantopithecus recreation, and found it to be not based completely on fabrications supplied by the Bigfoot community.
No, I've looked at the jaws and teeth. If you think estimating body size based on that data is uncommon in paleontology, you don't understand how paleontology works in the real world. I've seen relatively accurate estimates based on a LOT less of the organism, particularly in Mammalia (skulls, jaws, and teeth are what mammology focuses on, including entire species named from one or two teeth). The jaws are significantly larger than those of other, more commonly-known hominins. This pretty clearly demonstrates that known apes aren't the biggest possible. An 8' ape isn't an extraordinary claim by any stretch of the imagination. A 15' ape is a bit odd, but not outside the realm of possibility.

As for the bipedal thing, I'm going by standard English conventions for addressing body size--how big is the animal if you stretch it out? For primates, that means generally a bipedal posture. If I were discussing a therapod, I'd discuss length and height (if available--check out Spinosaurus sometime). Given that many hominins are bipedal, it's not an unevidenced interpretation (looking at how modern relatives work to determine how fossil organisms work is a standard bit of paleontological reasoning). It's not proven, but if it were I'd hardly consider it remarkable. If it were disproven, likewise.

Drewbot said:
BY WHAT STANDARD?

Because it seems to have been forgotten: I'm not a bigfoot believer. I've spent a great deal of time learning North American ecology and studying the fossils of areas where bigfoot is known. The utter lack of any evidence in the fossil record for anything like an ape in North America before the arival of humans is sufficient proof (given the nature of the Pleistocene/Holocene fossil record) for me to dismiss claims about bigfoot. My sole point here is that no one is able to define "extraordinary" in this context--"extraordinary" is used as synonymous with "data that prove me wrong", and that's hardly a valid definition in science. I've offered one, but it's been soundly rejected because, as far as I can tell, it doesn't allow people to emote on the subject.

If someone will provide an alternative standard for calling something extraordinary, I would be happy to consider it. No one has. The word remains, since everyone has de facto rejected my offered definition, undefined. I refuse to use an undefined word as a standard for evaluating evidence--as should any rational person.

LTC8K6 said:
I assure you that my backyard does not include even a sliver of Africa.
You might be surprised. Quite a bit of African coast came away with the Americans when Pangea split up. It's one of hte lines of evidence supporting the idea that continents move.
 

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