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Why should we believe that is real? Don't you guys know how science werks?
 
Multiple witness situations need to be treated specially. Each person must be examined individually. Nobody in the party should be allowed to speak for anyone other than themselves.

Also, if they have time to discuss their sightings with each other or an untrained investigator - individual memories might be reconstructed due to the phenomenon of false memory implanting.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/media-spotlight/201211/implanting-false-memories
 
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There is a fourth option you haven't considered: examining the data provided and determining if there is sufficient evidence to conclude anything. Often, there isn't. For example, a lot of bigfoot encounters are mere glimpses in a woods. Such sightings aren't sufficient to prove ANYTHING--not even that there was, in fact, a sighting (I've hunted a long time, and spend a lot of time in remote areas, so can attest to the ease with which your eye and mind can be fooled). At that point we're not saying that bigfoot doesn't exist--we are in fact saying that we aren't at that level yet. We are saying that there is insufficient evidence to make ANY claim.

The problem with concocting plausible-sounding scenarios by which these various sightings happen is that your explanation is just as fictional and erroneous as the woosters' explanations. Both of you are relying not on the evidence, but on preconceptions. BOTH of you are saying that you can say something without supporting evidence--which means, both of you are in error.

I disagree (mostly because no one can provide a firm division between "mundane" and "radical" [or more commonly, "ordinary" vs "extraordinary"]). The issue here is that all the evidence supports is that someone had some experience. Even if we accept the facts of the eye-witness accounts there's often not enough to prove that they actually experienced anything more than the normal variations in human perception. We can't offer any explanation because in many cases we can't prove there's anything to explain.

Thanks Dinwar for engaging the issue of cryptid sightings. I think some skeptics would rather not offer alternative explanations for sighting accounts because such explanations are open to criticism by the cryptozoology advocate, and therefore would muddy the issue, and they do not want the advocate distracted from holding firmly the burden of proof. I understand that.

For me, though, I want to try to understand how and why we have sightings of, say Bigfoot. To me, that IS the main issue with cryptozoology. Since there is no hard evidence Bigfoot exist, and it would be extremely unlikely we would NOT have such evidence if Bigfoot did exist, sightings are just dismissed by some skeptics as knowing lies or crazy hallucinations. There is no use in explaining any individual sighting further. This robs the issue of any interest or importance, in my book.

As to your points, I have to disagree with some of them. If you see no hard demarcation between the ordinary and extraordinary, then the idea that “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” is erroneous. Then the idea that a colony of huge bipedal apes, unknown to science, is native to Oklahoma is not an extraordinary claim. It might as well be just an ordinary claim.

Sightings are not evidentially neutral with skeptics competing with “woosters” for explanations. The sightings themselves are the evidence. Unconfirmable evidence not supported by any hard evidence, to be sure. But still, eyewitness testimony with all its shortcomings is considered evidence. In my view, if the skeptic is not prepared to explain a sighting, even if only provisionally, then the evidence of the sighting goes unchallenged.

I understand that the line between the ordinary and extraordinary may be blurred sometimes, but if you do not recognize any distinction between them then I can understand your statement that a skeptic’s “plausible-sounding scenarios” are “just a fictional and erroneous as the woosters’ explanations.” But I recognize a distinction. If you had said skeptical scenarios, which, BTW, you agree are “plausible-sounding,” were fictional and thus not provable, I would agree with you. Then we would agree that we have sightings and skeptical scenarios that are equally not provable.

However, you seem to be saying something stronger: skeptical scenarios are on the same level of erroneousness as the believer’s accounting -- both “are relying not on the evidence, but on preconceptions,” both are saying “something without supporting evidence” and therefore both “are in error.“

Let’s apply this to John Green’s/Ivan Sanderson’s foundational three sightings that helped form the bases of the Bigfoot myth, namely the Roe, Ostman, and Ruby Creek sightings. Roe, Ostman, and Mrs. Chapman all claimed to have encountered a large, bipedal hairy Wildman/ape or a family of them in British Columbia. If I were to make a plausible scenario for each case I would say that Roe made up his story, Ostman read Roe and made up his tall tale in response, and Mrs. Chapman probably saw a bear. What are my "preconceptions" and are they really coequal in possibility to the idea that the three witnesses saw very large hair covered feral Indians or bipedal giant apes?

I agree with you that these scenarios are fictional narratives and are unprovable. That is not an issue between us. What is an issue is that as possible solutions, you apparently would place them in the same category theoretically as a believer’s explanation. Given that you have granted to the skeptic’s scenario building a “plausible-sounding” credibility, would you also grant the believer’s account or explanation equal plausibility?

Fictional does not have to be free of evidence. In each of the Bigfoot sightings I mentioned, the scenarios have some evidence in support. For instance, in the Ruby Creek incident, tracks were found by the interloper and traces were made of one track. Years later, when Green uncovered the story, he found a copy of the tracing and eventually took it to a university scientist who told him it was a bear track. Thus the bear explanation holds some evidence; just as the sighting itself is considered evidence for Bigfoot.

If I have misunderstood you, let me know. If all you are saying is that explaining cryptid sightings by plausible scenarios cannot attain proof, then I agree and accept the provisional nature of the explanation. If, on the other hand, you believe plausible scenarios are skeptical versions of “woo,” then I respectfully disagree.
 
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jerrywayne said:
If you see no hard demarcation between the ordinary and extraordinary, then the idea that “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” is erroneous.
When someone can offer me an objective division between "ordinary" and "extraordinary" in terms of claims or evidence, I'll accept that that pithy saying has some epistemological validity. Until then, however, I see no reason to use it as a metric for evaluating anything.

Logic and reason are not about pithy sayings; they are about rational thought based on hard, objective facts. Saying such as the above are a crutch, one that should be abandoned. Interpretations and arguments must be supported by evidence and non-contradictory logic; this is true whether a claim is "ordinary" or "extraordinary". Once you accept that, the distinctions lose all importance.

Then the idea that a colony of huge bipedal apes, unknown to science, is native to Oklahoma is not an extraordinary claim. It might as well be just an ordinary claim.
What's extraordinary about it?

People have claimed, in full seriousness and in educated societies, that particles can be in two places at once. People have claimed at least twice that I know of that what we thought were separate species were in fact components of a single entity. I have personally held in my hand the remains of an organism so weird that after a full century of studying them we have only just begun to understand their anatomy, and haven't the faintest grasp of their ecology. A colony of huge bipedal apes, unknown to science, living in Oklahoma is far less radical than ANY of those claims--or many more that are considered routine by today's scientists.

The reason to reject the claim about bigfoot--the only honest one--is that the evidence (the requirements for which are outlined in the International Code of Zoological Nomenclature) doesn't support it. Declare it extraordinary all you want--that doesn't change a single aspect of the argument, except to introduce an unnecessary emotional element into it.

The sightings themselves are the evidence.
Never said they weren't. However, you are failing to differentiate between data and evaluations. That they saw something is data. That they saw a large brown shape may also be data (though poor data, due to the subjective nature of both descriptors [look up Munsel's history or blacksmithing advice to see how subjective color can be]). "I saw bigfoot" is an interpretation, NOT evidence.

I understand that the line between the ordinary and extraordinary may be blurred sometimes, but if you do not recognize any distinction between them then I can understand your statement that a skeptic’s “plausible-sounding scenarios” are “just a fictional and erroneous as the woosters’ explanations.”
That has nothing to do with the lack of objective division between "ordinary" and "extraordinary" in terms of evidence or claims. My objection to your "explanations" is that they're Just So Stories--they are plausible-sounding stories you made up that don't contradict anything, but which are completely devoid of supporting data themselves. They are exactly as well-supported as "I saw bigfoot". And thus, they are exactly as wrong.

Given that you have granted to the skeptic’s scenario building a “plausible-sounding” credibility, would you also grant the believer’s account or explanation equal plausibility?
You seem quite intent on springing some sort of rhetorical trap on me. I'm sorry, but it won't work. I'm not saying that bigfoot sightings are plausible--I have given extensive reasons why they are not, in fact. What I am saying is that your explanations are unevidenced Just So Stories and therefore can--and should--be dismissed without further consideration until such time as you can provide evidence for them. I have used the phrase "Just So Stories" multiple times in this post for a reason: they are a particularly virulent petulance in science, one that any researcher should make themselves well aware of.

The problem is, humans stop looking once we have a plausible answer to a question. And unfortunately, that means that we'll often stop looking well before we discover the truth. If you merely wish to mock and belittle those who disagree with you, that's fine--the actual truth of the matter is irrelevant to such people (and yes, such people even exist within the skeptics community). If you're after the truth, however, such errors are devastating, and are to be avoided if at all possible. Look at the history of our understanding of tetrapod digits to see just how powerful and dangerous Just So Stories are. And you're walking into exactly that same trap--all the while claiming it's in the interest of reason!

If, on the other hand, you believe plausible scenarios are skeptical versions of “woo,” then I respectfully disagree.
~shrug~ If you want to ignore the history of science and the lessons it teaches, go right ahead. I have no respect for anyone who would do that, however. Skepticism is supposed to be about basing one's opinions on the available data--and in this, you are completely abandoning the data in favor of some feel-good fluff, in precisely the same manner as the worst wooster.
 
Great post Dinwar. If I understand you correctly you are saying that alternate explanations such as pareidolia, mistaken identity, dissociation, bear, badger, lying, etc, are simply unevidenced scenarios that have no supporting data. I can understand that and see how that would render the purely anecdotal alleged bigfoot encounter as something with no response. What do you say to " I saw a bigfoot" with no supporting blobby photo or muddy tracks? I guess the correct response is to say " Cool story, bro" and move on?

I'm curious when you say, also, that if you are after the " actual truth of the matter" then offering alternate, unconfirmable theories can be devastating. How would one attempt to get at the actual truth of the matter, though? In the case of " I saw a bigfoot" and " No, you didn't" the truth of the matter is subjective for each party and is wholly indemonstrable.
 
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Great post Dinwar. If I understand you correctly you are saying that alternate explanations such as pareidolia, mistaken identity, dissociation, bear, badger, lying, etc, are simply unevidenced scenarios that have no supporting data. I can understand that and see how that would render the purely anecdotal alleged bigfoot encounter as something with no response. What do you say to " I saw a bigfoot" with no supporting blobby photo or muddy tracks? I guess the correct response is to say " Cool story, bro" and move on?

I'm curious when you say, also, that if you are after the " actual truth of the matter" then offering alternate, unconfirmable theories can be devastating. How would one attempt to get at the actual truth of the matter, though? In the case of " I saw a bigfoot" and " No, you didn't" the truth of the matter is subjective for each party and is wholly indemonstrable.
The reply to every bigfoot campfire story should be a nod and a nervous smile, and perhaps a "cool story bro'." Unless queried to debunk. Problem is, many skeptics (myself included) get all up in it without waiting for the query because many of these stories are so ridiculous, we can't help it. That's actually a fault on our part.*

Hitchens said something to the effect that you can dismiss without evidence something that was advanced without evidence, which is just okay as an axiom but probably shouldn't be standard operating procedure for say, a 911 operator.

* can't say I have a remedy for this fault either; if you come to this subforum with a campfire story, it's going to be examined.
 
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The problem with the claim "There are giant hairy wood apes in Oklahoma" is not that there are giant hairy wood apes living in Oklahoma.

The problem is: that the claim invariably equates to; "There are giant hairy wood apes, with infrasound, ability to detect cameras, making loud whoops, yet remaining terribly elusive, with Big, Goofy feet, with a Mid Tarsal Break, killing deer by spirally breaking it's legs, living in Oklahoma."

So yes, it is an extraordinary claim, and by the very fact that YOU HELD THAT OTHER SPECIMEN IN YOUR HAND, makes the claim that that animal exists, non-extraordinary. While the life-habits and reproductive nature of the beast you held in your hand may be in question, the fact that an actual specimen was deposited in your mitts, makes the nature of the claim quite ordinary.
 
Never been a huge fan of the extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence mantra. It seems to me that it should just be claims require evidence.
 
Never been a huge fan of the extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence mantra. It seems to me that it should just be claims require evidence.

Well, if a buddy tells me a deer ran through his yard, I probably won't require evidence to accept the claim.

If he tells me an elephant ran through his yard, I will require evidence...

:)
 
Never been a huge fan of the extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence mantra. It seems to me that it should just be claims require evidence.

Claims require evidence sufficient for the claim.

Or something.
 
Right, so in the case of bigfoot sufficient could be a toe or a thumb? Nothing too extraordinary about a thumb.
 
Certainly extraordinary in the sense of the discovery the toe evidences. But as a piece of biological evidence, a toe is not so out of the ordinary I would imagine. The evidence required to prove the bigfoot claim is no more extraordinary than has been used to prove numerous other species.
 
They require extraordinary evidence, in that if I was a Zoologist studying existing species, or looking for species new-to-science, I would want to weigh the pros/cons of the arguments before making a grant request decision. A cost/benefit analysis weighing the evidence or likelihood of existence.

I can look for a rumored species of Torrent Frog in the Peruvian Andes, there are several known Torrent frog species from the surrounding area, however, this species is known by locals as the RED TORRENT FROG, this would be the first fully red colored Torrent Frog in the area, it is rumored to live in a remote tributary, near populations of several other Torrent Frogs in the area, but is cut off by deep canyon walls and may be new to science.

OR--

I can look for a 8 foot tall hairy apeman, living in densely populated areas of North America's semi rural midwest and Pacific Northwest, the evidence cited by locals is as follows: BIG GOOFY LOOKING FEET, 'UP TO 14 FEET TALL', 'I SEEN ONE ON A RAILROAD CAR', 'USES THEM COYOTES AS HUNTIN DOGS', 'SMELLS LIKE A SKUNK', AND A 1967 VIDEO OF a 6 FOOTER WITH DUAL MAMMARIES JUTTING OUT OF ITS BELLY.

Umm, you are going to have to provide better evidence if you are going to shift the scientific community away from non-extraordinary creatures
 
Certainly extraordinary in the sense of the discovery the toe evidences. But as a piece of biological evidence, a toe is not so out of the ordinary I would imagine.
Of course it would be extraordinary.

The creature does not exist. To produce a piece of one would be extraordinary.
The evidence required to prove the bigfoot claim is no more extraordinary than has been used to prove numerous other species.
See the deer/elephant example above.
 
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dmaker said:
What do you say to " I saw a bigfoot" with no supporting blobby photo or muddy tracks? I guess the correct response is to say " Cool story, bro" and move on?
The arbitrary has no epistemological value. If you must respond, respond in a way that dismisses it.

Thomas Paine, in Age of Reason, pointed out that even if the evidence is sufficient for YOU to believe something, it doesn't mean that you telling me the evidence is necessarily sufficient for ME to believe it. Even if the person is correct--even if they actually saw bigfoot--simply saying they did is not sufficient for me to accept that they did. Without evidence, the claim is no different from any other arbitrary claim as far as I'm concerned.

I'm curious when you say, also, that if you are after the " actual truth of the matter" then offering alternate, unconfirmable theories can be devastating.
Accepting Just So Stories set paleontology back decades if not centuries. Acceptence of such stories prevented research into areas critical to understanding tetrapod evolution, as exemplified by research into the digits on tetrapod limbs. I believe that "devastating" is a suitable way to describe anything that holds an entire field of study back for a generation or more.

How would one attempt to get at the actual truth of the matter, though?
Careful examination of the evidence. If there's no evidence, no examination can take place and you dismiss it without further consideration. Also, be prepared to say "I don't know." In science it's perfectly acceptable to not know something--and sometimes (all too many in some fields) it's manditory.

Certainly extraordinary in the sense of the discovery the toe evidences. But as a piece of biological evidence, a toe is not so out of the ordinary I would imagine.
The International Code of Zoological Nomenclature presents requirements for naming and describing new species. I have yet to hear any rational or even coherent argument for why I should accept something as extraordinary when it is in fact required. To say that a type specimen of bigfoot is extraordinary (should one be presented, obviously) is no different than saying that driving the speed limit is extraordinary, or filling out a marriage license is extraordinary. It's emotive, not describtive.
 

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