Secession

[theprestige]

We in the USA live in a country. States are no more than administrative subdivisions. They aren't and can't ever be sovereign nations.

In fact it's exactly the other way around. The states are sovereign members of a union. They have much more in common with the member states of the EU than with the administrative oblasts of the Russian Federation.

 

[lobosrul5]

To be clear this is an entirely hypothetical conversation as it won't actually happen but....

Guardsmen have already chosen their state otherwise they'd be active duty or in the reserve. They'd just have to change the oath. They also wouldn't need the best equipment, well unless they expect the US to invade, because otherwise, who do they have to defend against? Mexico, Canada, some other state that also seceded?

For the most part, the seceding state would only loose money they get from the feds. The states and local governments do almost all of the standard government things but they do get money from the feds to do some of it.

ETA, I'm not down playing the abilities of the Mexican and Canadian militaries, just the likelyhood that they'd invade a former US state.

Uhh, the only two guardsman I've ever known did it to pay for college. Not out of loyalty to their state. One of them actually tried to get me to sign up when I was 19. I mean his spiel was basically its money for ******* around with guns and **** for 2 weeks a year. That was about 1 year before 9/11, and yes he got sent to Iraq.

Highlighted: we may be misunderstanding each other. Yes I meant if a state secedes unilaterally they will need a military in order to fend of the regular duty USA military.

 

[lobosrul5]

In fact it's exactly the other way around. The states are sovereign members of a union. They have much more in common with the member states of the EU than with the administrative oblasts of the Russian Federation.

We're federated states. That our states have more power than almost any other federal nation* is a bit irrelevant to the fact that indeed they're still federated, not sovereign. A war has already been fought proving this fact. I mean I'm gonna wish we (New Mexico) could peace the **** out of the USA if Trump is re-elected. But its not happening.

*I mean you could've picked a better example than Russia. Australia or Germany for example are federal nations, but their states have less freedom than ours. Russian oblasts have as much freedom as Putin decides to allow them to have that day.

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

Texas should secede... then they will find out that surviving without the Federal government will not be as easy as they think.

- All Texas borders (no just the Southern one) would have to be controlled - costs money
- They would need their own Army, Navy and Air Force - costs money
- No Federal money for education, health, defence or infrastructure
- Supply all their own energy requirements... they could probably do that 90% of the time, but their distribution network is ****** (remember when the system collapsed in the winter storms of 2021.... when Ted Cruz buggered-off to Cancun and left his fellow Texans to freeze to death?)
- Since a prime reason for Texas seceding is the border and immigration, they would expel all immigrants - so who's going to do all the crop picking and other **** jobs currently done by immigrants ... some fat, lazy Texans?

Mexico would probably invade and take back Texas. Kick out all the güeros. Remember the Alamo!

 

[ahhell]

Uhh, the only two guardsman I've ever known did it to pay for college. Not out of loyalty to their state. One of them actually tried to get me to sign up when I was 19. I mean his spiel was basically its money for ******* around with guns and **** for 2 weeks a year. That was about 1 year before 9/11, and yes he got sent to Iraq.

Highlighted: we may be misunderstanding each other. Yes I meant if a state secedes unilaterally they will need a military in order to fend of the regular duty USA military.

That's correct, I assumed they'd secede via some mutual agreement. You're correct in that if some state decided to leave on its own there would be a shooting match with the US and the State would lose. I have no doubt about why most guardsmen join being mostly mercenary, still, that doesn't imply much loyalty to the US over the State. Absent a shooting match with the US, I suspect most would be fine staying with the state rather than the Feds.

We're federated states. That our states have more power than almost any other federal nation* is a bit irrelevant to the fact that indeed they're still federated, not sovereign. A war has already been fought proving this fact. I mean I'm gonna wish we (New Mexico) could peace the **** out of the USA if Trump is re-elected. But its not happening.

*I mean you could've picked a better example than Russia. Australia or Germany for example are federal nations, but their states have less freedom than ours. Russian oblasts have as much freedom as Putin decides to allow them to have that day.

Not really true, the US is a true federal system with sovereignty shared between the states and the Feds. There are literally things the feds are not allowed to do. That balance of power has definitely moved towards the feds but the States still do have some sovereignty.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/federalism

In the United States, the Constitution has established a system of “dual sovereignty,” under which the States have surrendered many of their powers to the Federal Government, but also retained some sovereignty. Examples of this dual sovereignty are described in the U.S. Constitution.

An example of how US States share sovereignty.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostille_Convention#Gallery_of_apostilles_by_state

If you note, the gallery, most of the apostilles are issued by national governments, in the US they are issued by the States.

In effect, the Constitution is a treaty between the States.

Edit to add, Germany and the UK are both good examples of federal systems as the states actually retain a lot more power than many people realize. Scotland has its own parliament after all. This is in fact what federalism means, a group of States give up some but not all of there sovereignty to a central authority.

 

[lobosrul5]

That's correct, I assumed they'd secede via some mutual agreement. You're correct in that if some state decided to leave on its own there would be a shooting match with the US and the State would lose. I have no doubt about why most guardsmen join being mostly mercenary, still, that doesn't imply much loyalty to the US over the State. Absent a shooting match with the US, I suspect most would be fine staying with the state rather than the Feds.


Not really true, the US is a true federal system with sovereignty shared between the states and the Feds. There are literally things the feds are not allowed to do. That balance of power has definitely moved towards the feds but the States still do have some sovereignty.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/federalism


An example of how US States share sovereignty.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostille_Convention#Gallery_of_apostilles_by_state

If you note, the gallery, most of the apostilles are issued by national governments, in the US they are issued by the States.

In effect, the Constitution is a treaty between the States.

Edit to add, Germany and the UK are both good examples of federal systems as the states actually retain a lot more power than many people realize. Scotland has its own parliament after all. This is in fact what federalism means, a group of States give up some but not all of there sovereignty to a central authority.

The UK is actually considered a hybrid nation-state. Scotland has its own parliament, as do NI and Wales. But, England does not.

 

[Manopolus]

OK well many other states had a referendum on joining the union.


Put it this way folks: if Trump wins again (and he very well may), and takes the USA down the path of fascism and authoritarianism, and a GOP controlled Congress lets him do it, I think Liberal states should have the right to say "**** this, we had enough, we wont be part of this **** anymore!!"

Yeah... take a good look at what happened around the time when Kansas became a state. You might change your opinion about pure democracy a bit. We weren't called "bloody" Kansas for nothing.

Basically, some nincompoops decided that we were going to democratically decide whether to be a slave state or a free state (originally we were supposed to be a free state, but the southern faction somehow managed to reneg on that treaty and demand that we decide for ourselves). Immediately following, there was a stampede of immigration from both factions, a bit of bloodshed, and even people who actually still lived in Missouri casting votes in Kansas. At one time, we had two territorial congresses, one slave faction and one free faction. Neither acknowledged the other as legitimate, of course.

The free staters won (yay) but it was a bit chancey for a while there. That was The Civil War before the actual Civil War. And we still had people that fought on either side of the official one (but mostly we just burned down Columbia, Missouri a few times before they could decide on whether to secede or not (they never did, although they were a slave state)... that was the good part).

(and yeah, I could have maybe chosen a better post to quote, but I was on this one when I decided that I wanted to reply to your line of argument)

 

[Norman Alexander]

We in the USA live in a country. States are no more than administrative subdivisions. They aren't and can't ever be sovereign nations.

I said that my great grandfather went to war to save his COUNTRY from being destroyed by the worst elements in it. He enlisted in a unit named for Ohio; that's where he lived and it was easy to join.

I doubt they'd take me in the Michigan Iron Brigade. Damn shame. I could serve in Intel, pinpointing the saloons in Casper where the WyoMingk Ruff Riderers will congregate every evening.

...was that deliberately aweful??

 

[Norman Alexander]

Mexico would probably invade and take back make an offer to Prez-For-Life Trump to buy Texas. Kick out all the güeros. Remember the Alamo!

And the proceeds would go into Trump's personal offshore money-pit.

 

[sackett]

...was that deliberately aweful??

Certainly not! In the Sovereign Imperium of the Eternally-Independent State of Wyoming, every freeman spells the American Language his own damn way and he don't take no bull from alien foreigners! We enjoy open carry of as many sharpies as we want, under the God-given 1st & Only Mendment! And when we CCeed (any day now), we'll mark YOUR little map! Better bleeve it!

Me 'n prestige, we're talken 'bout liberty. Not that goddamned liberal liberty neether.

 

[Delvo]

Simple process: just go ahead and do it. If the Feds say you can't and they'll use force to stop it, then it wasn't legal, and you can just surrender immediately. If the Feds don't do that, then it was legal, and you're already done.

 

[Norman Alexander]

Certainly not! In the Sovereign Imperium of the Eternally-Independent State of Wyoming, every freeman spells the American Language his own damn way and he don't take no bull from alien foreigners! We enjoy open carry of as many sharpies as we want, under the God-given 1st & Only Mendment! And when we CCeed (any day now), we'll mark YOUR little map! Better bleeve it!

Me 'n prestige, we're talken 'bout liberty. Not that goddamned liberal liberty neether.

Settle, petal.