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Scouts and Religion?

Upchurch said:
I was going to start a new thread on this subject (in relation to one currently going on over in Politics) when I remembered that there already was one. And, looking back over it, other posters and myself have already said everything I was going to say.

So, to make a long story short: bump.
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Hey, I remember this thread! Franko and I agreed on something! Such a momentous occasion...
 
Upchurch said:
Icky! ;)

What did you agree about?
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Franko: I am just saying that I agree that a person, or group of people, has the right to meet and associate with who they want to meet and associate with.

Me: I agree. I think if they wish to disagree with government policy, though, they need to cease taking government money/resources.

Franko: I think we are pretty much in agreement on this topic.

Mutual and explicit! Ooh la la!

I think I was on the Forces of Evil list at this point, too.
 
aerosolben said:
Mutual and explicit! Ooh la la!

I think I was on the Forces of Evil list at this point, too.
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Ah, carp. I agree with that too. Now I really am on the Forces of Evil list....
 
Re: Re: Scouts and Religion?

Upchurch said:


In my day, I was (and still am) proud to be an Eagle Scout, but I'm ashamed of the stance BSA has taken with atheists and gays. When Lord Baden Powell set up the Scouts, he added the religious element with the hopes that Scouting would encourage boys to find religion on their own terms, not cram it down their throats. Nor did he intend to exclude anyone because they didn't believe in God. This decision by the BSA is outright incorrect and flat out wrong.

Now, I agree that they have the legal right to exclude whomever they wish, Ias a member, I think this is the wrong decision and not worthy of the tradition of Boy Scouts.

Here is an organization that is trying to work from within the BSA to change it's policy about gays and atheists. Even though it more weighted towards the gay side of the issue than the atheist side of the issue, it's still an excellent organization.

Upchurch
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Great link, Upchurch.

If I had kids (likely coming soon to a VicDaring near you) I dunno which direction I'd rather take.
A) Try to help change the BSA from within. As an Eagle Scout circa 1985 I've got some sentimentality on this, so there's a certain appeal there...or...
B) Support a more inclusive organization, like Boys & Girls Club or Campfire USA. I think I like this one better.

Truthfully, BSA may be one or two more stupid public statements away from receiving all my Eagle Scout stuff in the mail with a brief note about why I no longer wish to be associated with their organization.
 
Re: Re: Re: Scouts and Religion?

VicDaring said:

If I had kids (likely coming soon to a VicDaring near you) I dunno which direction I'd rather take.
A) Try to help change the BSA from within. As an Eagle Scout circa 1985 I've got some sentimentality on this, so there's a certain appeal there...or...
B) Support a more inclusive organization, like Boys & Girls Club or Campfire USA. I think I like this one better.

Truthfully, BSA may be one or two more stupid public statements away from receiving all my Eagle Scout stuff in the mail with a brief note about why I no longer wish to be associated with their organization.
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I'm still an idealist, I guess. I'm still very loyal to BSA, even though I don't agree with the policy. I want BSA to be the thing I feel it ought to be rather than the thing it currently is and I think the only way to make it what it ought to be is to do it from the inside.

The question that keeps coming up in my mind is: What do you do when your "duty to God and my country" are (apparently) mutually exclusive?
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Scouts and Religion?

Upchurch said:
I'm still an idealist, I guess. I'm still very loyal to BSA, even though I don't agree with the policy. I want BSA to be the thing I feel it ought to be rather than the thing it currently is and I think the only way to make it what it ought to be is to do it from the inside.
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I understand completely.

The question that keeps coming up in my mind is: What do you do when your "duty to God and my country" are (apparently) mutually exclusive?
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Unfortunately, while people like you and I grapple with that question, BSA has a pretty simple answer: Get out!
 
The BSA is not an advocating of critical thinking, they do however support belief in unsubstantiated preconcieved notions.

Do you want your children to be affiliated with such an irrational organization? Kicking people out simply because they aren't attracted to members of the opposite sex like heterosexuals are?

No, this is NOT a good group for children. A bad influence.

It doesn't matter if they teach good behavior or sing songs around campfires. I'm sure there are other, better organizations that do that and don't discriminate based on irrational dogmas.
 
Good points all, LK.

My thing is, much like Upchurch, I have a history and an affection for the Scouts. I'd really like to see them do the right thing and there's a part of me that thinks if I could help that happen...man, that'd be cool.

Also, they teach more than good behavior and campfire songs. They do a terrific job teaching how to be self-sufficient. There are a ton of little things I learned in Scouts that have helped me not have to depend on others later in life. If you can learn to cook on a campfire, a stove is a piece of cake.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Scouts and Religion?

Upchurch said:
The question that keeps coming up in my mind is: What do you do when your "duty to God and my country" are (apparently) mutually exclusive? [/B]
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As an Eagle Scout and atheist, agnostic, or deist, I see no conflict with my "duty to God and country." Nor do I have any qualms about the questioning of any religious doctrine. I am not a christian, nor a member of any other organized sect. Therefore all dogma's are suspect and according to my God or Non-God all such dogmas are not only open for investigation but investigation and questioning are demanded of me - That IS my duty to God.
 
"You need to have a recognition of a supreme being," said Farmer. "We as the Boy Scouts do not define what that is, but you need to have a recognition."
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This statement has always tickled me. How about Zeus or Primus or Galactus? Those are some pretty supreme beings. Hell, depending on your definition of 'supreme' you could call Yahoo Serious a supreme being. :roll:
 
One of my old friends is an Eagle Scout. He is also an atheist.

He did not make a big deal about his religious beliefs, and when asked about them, I understand he answered diplomatically but truthfully. He said he was not a member of any church, but he did not deny the existence of the Almighty. He expressed reverence and awe for nature. He felt that many ethical questions involve consideration of entities higher than oneself.

And he did not get kicked out of the Scouts.

Ten years ago, however, the outcome might have been different.
 
Thanks for bumping this thread, Upchurch, I had not seen it before.

A few random thoughts...

It's nice to know that the popcorn sales are part of the national organization. Makes me feel better for refusing to buy them. I always tell the sad-eyed little scamp that I'd be glad to buy them as soon as boy scouts starts admitting atheists and gays. I have had one adult tell me that I shouldn't say that to the kid--it's not his fault, after all; perhaps I should have a written statement for him to pass on to the higher-ups. I figure if he knows and agrees with the policy, he deserves the rejection, and if he does not know, he deserves to know.

When I was growing up, I started out as a cub scout, and quickly found that, in our area, scouting was a complete joke. My parents ran a (non-scout) camp which was far superior (and of course, lost money like a sieve and had to close after just a few years). I know that scouting has been an incredible experience for some of my friends. My point, I guess, is that it is not the organization which makes it good or bad, but the local realization of the troup. So, in my view, screw the national organization.

As for supreme beings, I have alway tended to agree with Randi that Sophia Loren comes about as close as any. Recently, Laetitia Casta would get my vote. So, you scouts out there, if I could obey the letter of the pledge while pledging to do my duty to Laetitia Casta (or to address both the atheist and gay aspects, Johnny Depp), would that suffice? Or am I kicked out?

There was a thread within the past year about a summer camp for atheists. Don't know if it survived the re-organization. Anyway, it looked pretty terrible, if memory serves. Seems any time one's beliefs come before one's peer interactions (in a camp setting, anyway), it makes for an awkward growth experience.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Scouts and Religion?

Heretic said:


As an Eagle Scout and atheist, agnostic, or deist, I see no conflict with my "duty to God and country." Nor do I have any qualms about the questioning of any religious doctrine. I am not a christian, nor a member of any other organized sect. Therefore all dogma's are suspect and according to my God or Non-God all such dogmas are not only open for investigation but investigation and questioning are demanded of me - That IS my duty to God.
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Actually, I was refering specifically to American Christian Boy Scouts. On the one hand, the scout has a country that believes "that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." On the other hand, the scout has a religion that believes that homosexuality is a sin.

In other words, you have one side telling you that gay boys should be allowed in BSA and another side telling you that gay boys should not be allowed in BSA.

The answer, in my mind, is obvious. It is called "The Boy Scouts of America" not "The Boy Scouts of One Specific Religious Belief System". Why a specifically conservative Christian morality system is allowed to dominate the BSA is beyond me and should stop immediately.
 
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