SCOTUS strikes down reverse discrimination

[Thunder]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090629/pl_nm/us_usa_race_court

I am all for ending the legacy of segregation and discrimination where it existed. But punishing American citizens just because of the color of their skin is not right.

Civil service exams should be color-blind, and there is no evidence that this exam was anything but color-blind.

I support the conservative judges decision today.

 

[Cobalt]

Good deal. I've always found affirmative action to be a load of ****.

 

[Thunder]

I support helping minorities prepare for exams, get better education, get better training. But the day an innocent white or Asian man has to suffer because of the wrongs of 45 years ago, I say no.

 

[ProbeX]

I support helping minorities prepare for exams, get better education, get better training. But the day an innocent white or Asian man has to suffer because of the wrongs of 45 years ago, I say no.

... What about Latinos? ... Or, women?

I get your point. And I agree.

 

[Thunder]

Helping one man by hurting another..is not democracy.

 

[Merko]

Well. The resources of the world are finite. Helping one person will always hurt someone else. Give black people education, and that will mean some white person won't get a job she otherwise would have got.

Granted, any affirmative action must always be a temporary policy. The idea is to correct for a historical wrong - to justify such a thing being permanent, you have to use arguments about some 'race' being inherently inferior. Still, any enacted policy will find defenders who for political reasons will back it long after it no longer serves its purpose.

So I'm sure there's some affirmative action policies that are no longer needed, and which should be abolished. But it seems clear that there's a movement in the US that is just fixated with removing every trace of affirmative action. These types will argue with a straight face that if a school admits 99 white students and then one black student who got in because of affirmative action, this is 'racism' because white person number 100 was denied.

While there are some arguments against affirmative action per se, the one about 'reverse discrimination' just does not hold as an argument to end any affirmative action. Anyone serious about fighting discrimination would have to look at the harm done by existing discrimination, then compare it with the harm done by 'reverse' discrimination from affirmative action, and then look at those proportions. It's probably true that a 'proper' proportion of harm is not 1:1. We should be less tolerant of the government perpetrating a wrong than when it happens for other reasons. But it's silly to argue that any 'reverse' discrimination, regardless of proportionality, should disqualify an action.

 

[Thunder]

i would only support quotas if it was proved that a situation existed where qualified black men were constantly and consistently discriminated against in favor of white men, and especially less qualified white men

 

[Drudgewire]

We shall overcome!!

 

[ProbeX]

Granted, any affirmative action must always be a temporary policy. The idea is to correct for a historical wrong - to justify such a thing being permanent, you have to use arguments about some 'race' being inherently inferior.

No, you can also use the argument that some 'race' is perpetually undermined by an ongoing racist mindset within society.

So I'm sure there's some affirmative action policies that are no longer needed, and which should be abolished. But it seems clear that there's a movement in the US that is just fixated with removing every trace of affirmative action.

And herein lies a very big problem. Who gets to say when racism is finally not a problem in society?

When will those in the political minority (who are benefiting from affirmative action policies) agree that discrimination against them is over? Even if/when said folks were eventually neck and neck with their political counterparts, what reason do they have to give up the privileges that come from affirmative action?

As a minority you are "rewarded" via acceptance of the role of ongoing victim/underdog. And ironically, you are also forever identified racially as a condition for participating in these programs.

 

[oldhat]

Helping one man by hurting another..is not democracy.

So you also support overturning any preference for legacies and the sons and daughters of donors to colleges, too, a.k.a. affirmative action for rich white people, right?

 

[Thunder]

And herein lies a very big problem. Who gets to say when racism is finally not a problem in society?
.

the purpose of affirmative action is not to redress all racism that may exist within society. the purpose of affirmative actions was to redress the de-jure racism that existed in the South and much of the North.

once state sponsored racism in terms of hiring, firing, housing, etc..is fully ended..and once racism in private businesses and corporations ends, then the healing can end.

but i say again, helping blacks and other minorities become more qualified, more prepared, and better educated does not have to include hurting white employees who are qualified and have taken no part in discriminatory practises.

i am clearly in favor only of those forms of affirmative action that only help folks..never hurt anyone.

 

[ProbeX]

once state sponsored racism in terms of hiring, firing, housing, etc..is fully ended..and once racism in private businesses and corporations ends, then the healing can end.

When would that be? Who decides when it has ended (Whites or Blacks/"Others"?)

 

[Drysdale]

So you also support overturning any preference for legacies and the sons and daughters of donors to colleges, too, a.k.a. affirmative action for rich white people, right?

So you're saying there's no rich black folks? Or Hispanic,Asian etc?

So basically some poor white kid from the slums(I know,hard to imagine according to the movies and the news etc but bare with me)busts their behind studying and working nights to help the family, scores great on SAT's,entrance exams but because they're white is denied entrance in favor of a minority who scored lower because of affirmative action.

That's your stance?

 

[mhaze]

Well. The resources of the world are finite. Helping one person will always hurt someone else. Give black people education, and that will mean some white person won't get a job she otherwise would have got.....

False.

Talent, skills, and capability do not natively engender zero sum games, but the opposite.

 

[thaiboxerken]

i would only support quotas if it was proved that a situation existed where qualified black men were constantly and consistently discriminated against in favor of white men, and especially less qualified white men

They should perform some studies on this. Particularly in The South.

 

[linusrichard]

Boy, to read this thread, you'd think the case had something to do with affirmative action, or that the defendants discriminated against somebody.

What they did was throw out the test results because the white and hispanic applicants did better than the black applicants, so they figured the test must be biased, so they wanted to find a way to choose whom to promote without using a biased test. Also wanted to avoid getting sued.

Now, the Supreme Court has said they were wrong, and you can agree, and I think I probably agree as well. I'm not sure. But unless I'm reading it wrong (and correct me if I am), there wasn't any actual discrimination going on here.

 

[Thunder]

Now, the Supreme Court has said they were wrong, and you can agree, and I think I probably agree as well. I'm not sure. But unless I'm reading it wrong (and correct me if I am), there wasn't any actual discrimination going on here.

wrong. the white and hispanic firemen were discriminated against due to their race. their test results were thrown out just because of their race.

 

[linusrichard]

wrong. the white and hispanic firemen were discriminated against due to their race. their test results were thrown out just because of their race.

No, all the test results were thrown out.

 

[Dr Adequate]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090629/pl_nm/us_usa_race_court

I am all for ending the legacy of segregation and discrimination where it existed. But punishing American citizens just because of the color of their skin is not right.

Civil service exams should be color-blind, and there is no evidence that this exam was anything but color-blind.

I support the conservative judges decision today.

Agreed.

 

[oldhat]

So you're saying there's no rich black folks? Or Hispanic,Asian etc?

So basically some poor white kid from the slums(I know,hard to imagine according to the movies and the news etc but bare with me)busts their behind studying and working nights to help the family, scores great on SAT's,entrance exams but because they're white is denied entrance in favor of a minority who scored lower because of affirmative action.

That's your stance?

No, my stance is if you're going to get rid of one form of affirmative action (such as adding weight to an application based on his or her race), you better be ready to come down like a hammer on all of the other forms of invisible affirmative action that exist in our society that the ruling class (read: educated white men, like us) aren't even aware of.

I am as liberal/socialist/commie/BarackHusseinObamaSoetero blah blah blah as they come and I thought the New Haven firefighters case was a no brainer. If "not enough" qualified applicants applied that year, that's no excuse to toss the results of the exam and demand a Mulligan. The soft bigotry of lowered expectations and all that.

I would have sided with the majority on that one.

P.S. Can we do away with the myth that affirmative action means giving a patently unqualified black applicant immediate preference over Socrates Elmer Gantry Joe DiMaggio when he's applying to college? Affirmative action doesn't work like that. A.A. is a policy where race may be considered as one of many facets of an applicant. Which translates to, all other things being equal, the under represented minority should be given preference.

Also, just to get rid of the race warfare tinge to this debate, it doesn't primarily help racial minorities, A.A. mostly helps women.

I know I've been personally been screwed by affirmative action as far as applying to colleges and grad school and you don't hear sour grapes out of me. White men have it easy in this society. Stop complaining, as far as I'm concerned.

Shrugs.