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SCOTUS pick: John Roberts

RandFan said:
So I was right the first time or so it seems.

Were you? I'm not so sure (nor convinced either way)

Please post in:

XIV Amendment: Adults/Children

A "quote in new thread" button would have worked better but I managed because I'm a responsible poster that understands what a thread topic is. So are you. Vote here too!
 
pgwenthold said:
So if Roberts is such a stickler for technically correct decisions, does that mean he will rule to enforce the very clear statement in the constitution that says

"Congress shall pass NO LAW respecting the establishment of religion, nor the free exercise thereof..."?

Or will he weasel out of it?
Seems to me that the job of supreme court justice is exactly supposed to sticklering for technically correct decisions - free of ideology, personal bias, political agendas. Enforcement is not part of the job description.

So far, it sounds like Roberts fits these requirements very well.
 
pgwenthold said:
So if Roberts is such a stickler for technically correct decisions, does that mean he will rule to enforce the very clear statement in the constitution that says

"Congress shall pass NO LAW respecting the establishment of religion, nor the free exercise thereof..."?

Or will he weasel out of it?

He almost has no choice but to 'weasel' out of it regardless of his religious views. The best he can do is rule in a manner in which you approve or a manner in which you do not.

Why?

The amendment is self-contradictory in terms of the court unless you hold the position that the congress cannot mandate a state to not have an official religion.

That's the problem with the strict interpretation of that amendment. It specifically says "congress". It neglects to include or even mention states. That opens the floodgates. Not saying it's right, or wrong, in this thread. Start a new one if it interests you.
 
Re: Re: Re: SCOTUS pick: John Roberts

Rob Lister said:
That was dog-laughing funny. It is also prophetic. It won't breakdown exactly like you wrote but, by golly, it'll be close.

I disagree. Let me break out the crystal ball and predict that only the fringes will find a problem with this guy. He's a decent choice and both sides of the aisle have an interest in the story being a smooth appointment rather than trench warfare.


Unless the Democratic Party decides to see how stupid they can act, always a danger.... They can gain much political capital here by a quick confirmation to be used if Bush tries to push a complete nutbar next time...
 
Here are a couple of points that I hope we can agree on.

Having a justice on the supreme court who is a "conservative" is not necessarily a bad thing. I put the word "conservative" in quotation marks because I use the word in a judicial sense, which is not how most people today use it.

A "conservative" judge listens to to the arguments of the parties, and weighs and evaluates them. A "conservative" judge does not prejudge an issue, nor does a "conservative" judge rule according to a preconceived plan or a personal faith.

A good "conservative" judge is smart, is able to reason well, and is able to apply the law. A good "conservative" judge can identify and explain the legal principles that decide a particular case.

Most important, a good "conservative" judge strives to let the legal principles direct the result, not the other way around. Sometimes this means that the judge's "friends" lose, becuase their opponents have the law on their side.

Is Roberts this kind of "conservative" judge? This should be the question that should be asked.
 
pgwenthold said:
So if Roberts is such a stickler for technically correct decisions, does that mean he will rule to enforce the very clear statement in the constitution that says

"Congress shall pass NO LAW respecting the establishment of religion, nor the free exercise thereof..."?

Or will he weasel out of it?

I sure hope your idea of what "very clear" means and what Roberts' idea of "very clear" means are different.

That's probably the way you would like the first amendment to read, no law respecting the free exercise of religion and all that, but that isn't what it very clearly says.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: SCOTUS pick: John Roberts

LegalPenguin said:
I disagree. Let me break out the crystal ball and predict that only the fringes will find a problem with this guy. He's a decent choice and both sides of the aisle have an interest in the story being a smooth appointment rather than trench warfare.

Isn't it always the fringes who have the problem, and who we hear the most from during a nomination process?

A fellow from a coalition on the Right on NPR this morning said they have 20 million dollars ready to be put into action to support Roberts. But they are waiting for the Left to fire the first shot.

20 million bucks. And I understand the Left has quite a powerful coalition put together. NOW, MoveOn, etc.

MoveOn is already on the attack.

In nominating John Roberts, the president has chosen a right wing corporate lawyer and ideologue for the nation's highest court instead of a judge who would protect the rights of the American people. Working for mining companies, Roberts opposed clean air rules and worked to help coal companies strip-mine mountaintops. He worked with Ken Starr (yes, that Ken Starr), and tried to keep Congress from defending the Voting Rights Act. He wrote that Roe v. Wade should be "overruled," and as a lawyer argued (and won) the case that stopped some doctors from even discussing abortion. That's why we believe: "The Senate must not confirm right-wing corporate lawyer John Roberts to the Supreme Court."


Unless the Democratic Party decides to see how stupid they can act, always a danger.... They can gain much political capital here by a quick confirmation to be used if Bush tries to push a complete nutbar next time...

Thus my second post here about my guess of Justice Brown for Rehnquist's retirement replacement. Will she be painted as a "nutbar"? Is she more controversial?

A few days ago, though, Rehnquist did say he is not planning on retiring. But hey, Bush has three and a half more years to wait out the 80 year old to retire.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: SCOTUS pick: John Roberts

Luke T. said:
But hey, Bush has three and a half more years to wait out the 80 year old to retire.
Stevens is 85, when Bush replaces a liberal that's when the Dems pick the big fight.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: SCOTUS pick: John Roberts

Luke T. said:
Isn't it always the fringes who have the problem, and who we hear the most from during a nomination process?

MoveOn is already on the attack.


MoveOn is almost by definition a knee jerk outfit, and their criticism in this case is babble of a high order. To wit:

In nominating John Roberts, the president has chosen a right wing corporate lawyer
They expected the chief counsel for PETA?
and ideologue for the nation's highest court instead of a judge who would protect the rights of the American people.
Bush hates our freedom?
Working for mining companies, Roberts opposed clean air rules and worked to help coal companies strip-mine mountaintops.
Ye Gads!!! A lawyer who argued for his client's interests? How awful!!!
He worked with Ken Starr (yes, that Ken Starr)
Worse yet, he once had tea with Richard Dawson's cousin...
, and tried to keep Congress from defending the Voting Rights Act.
Huh?
He wrote that Roe v. Wade should be "overruled,"
So did you just now.... if we ignore context...
and as a lawyer argued (and won) the case that stopped some doctors from even discussing abortion. That's why we believe: "The Senate must not confirm right-wing corporate lawyer John Roberts to the Supreme Court."
"We don't like him because he's a Republican."

...which is what it boils down to.


"Once worked with Ken Starr?" This passes as criticism?

If anything, this may be a litmus test to help sort the reasonable left from the unreasonable left, in that Roberts is as good a nominee that can be reasonably expected, IMO... Bush is a Republican for crying out loud... complaining that his nominee is "right wing" or once worked as a corporate lawyer is quite absurd... Like complaining about water being wet....

I hope the Dems are reasonable... ask him a few pointed questions, work him over lightly to cover obvious bases, and vote to confirm him unless he goes sideways...
 
pgwenthold said:
So if Roberts is such a stickler for technically correct decisions, does that mean he will rule to enforce the very clear statement in the constitution that says

"Congress shall pass NO LAW respecting the establishment of religion, nor the free exercise thereof..."?

Or will he weasel out of it?

The problem with this is, that if the constitution is indeed treated this way, it only deals with CONGRESS. The Federal one, that is. This amendment says nothing--and was obviously not intended--to say anything about what STATES could do as far as religion is concerned.

Technically speaking, if the STATES decide to make themselves Shari'a-following Islamic theocracies, the SCOTUS would have no power to stop them as long as they are not passing federal laws. I.e., the new creationism-teaching laws would not be unconstitutional as long as they are not federal laws.

The SCOTUS had, for a variety of reasons, often expanded the meaning of the constitution to increase its own and the federal government's power in expense of the states. This is not necessarily a bad thing. But it should be obvious that this is what they are doing.
 
He worked with Ken Starr (yes, that Ken Starr)

Worse yet, he once had tea with Richard Dawson's cousin...


...did anybody work out his Kevin Bacon number yet?
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: SCOTUS pick: John Roberts

LegalPenguin said:


moveon quote: He wrote that Roe v. Wade should be "overruled,"
-------------------------------
So did you just now.... if we ignore context...

Nicely done.
 
Re: Re: Re: SCOTUS pick: John Roberts

RandFan said:
Interesting...I wonder, once you've had wild caribou can you ever go back to domesticated. Just a thought.

I would think domesticated would be more convenient: less jittery. ;)
 
Skeptic said:
The problem with this is, that if the constitution is indeed treated this way, it only deals with CONGRESS. The Federal one, that is. This amendment says nothing--and was obviously not intended--to say anything about what STATES could do as far as religion is concerned.

Technically speaking, if the STATES decide to make themselves Shari'a-following Islamic theocracies, the SCOTUS would have no power to stop them as long as they are not passing federal laws. I.e., the new creationism-teaching laws would not be unconstitutional as long as they are not federal laws.

The SCOTUS had, for a variety of reasons, often expanded the meaning of the constitution to increase its own and the federal government's power in expense of the states. This is not necessarily a bad thing. But it should be obvious that this is what they are doing.
That's not actually the case. It's pretty much agreed upon among constitutional scholars, including strict constructionists, that the intent and effect of the 14th Amendment was to extend all or most of the protections for the people and limitations on the government of the Constitution to include actions by the States. A state could indeed have established Shari'a as its state religion prior to 1868. Since then the constitutional limitations on the federal government are also largely applied to the states.
 
manny said:
That's not actually the case. It's pretty much agreed upon among constitutional scholars, including strict constructionists, that the intent and effect of the 14th Amendment was to extend all or most of the protections for the people and limitations on the government of the Constitution to include actions by the States. A state could indeed have established Shari'a as its state religion prior to 1868. Since then the constitutional limitations on the federal government are also largely applied to the states.
Let me add a caveat. Justice Clarence Thomas has specifically taken the position that the 14th Amendment does not apply to the Establishment Clause. Thus, Utah could constitionally declare itself a Mormon state, Georgia could declare itself a Southern Baptist State, Wisconsin could declare itself a Catholic State, and so on.

These declarations could be more than symbolic, in Justice Thomas's view, without offending the First Amendment. Certain churches could be given outright preferences, and several forms of government-approved religious discrimination would be permissible.

Justice Thomas, in my judgment, is dead wrong on this point. He is currently in the minority in his view of the 14th Amendment, with perhaps some sympathy from Justice Scalia. Nevertheless, little Bush has publicly expressed a desire to put more judges like Thomas and Scalia on the court, and it is not out of the question that certain constitutionally principles could be radically altered.
 
Brown said:
Let me add a caveat. Justice Clarence Thomas has specifically taken the position that the 14th Amendment does not apply to the Establishment Clause. Thus, Utah could constitionally declare itself a Mormon state, Georgia could declare itself a Southern Baptist State, Wisconsin could declare itself a Catholic State, and so on.
Hey Brown,

Interesting stuff. I did not know this. Do you have a source?
 
manny said:
I'm just damned disappointed in the President tonight. If he doesn't nominate Janice Rogers Brown for Rhenquist's spot when the time comes I'll consider his SCOTUS record to be a failure.
manny, my bottom 5 candidates to be a Supreme are:

1. Roy Moore
2. Janice Rogers Brown
3. Mickey Mouse
4. You
5. Me

So my sense is the Dems ought to go through the motions and let this guy through. When Bush nominates again, it'll be closer to the end of his term, he'll be facing lame-duck status, and will have little left to fight for other than nominating a REAL nutjob like Brown. Then the Dems should invoke the "extraordinary" clause of their "agreement" with the elephants.
 
RandFan said:
Hey Brown,

Interesting stuff. I did not know this. Do you have a source?
Yes. Look first at Justice Thomas's remarks in the Pledge case, ELK GROVE UNIFIED SCHOOL DISTRICT v. NEWDOW:
Quite simply, the Establishment Clause is best understood as a federalism provision--it protects state establishments from federal interference but does not protect any individual right. These two features independently make incorporation of the Clause difficult to understand. The best argument in favor of incorporation would be that, by disabling Congress from establishing a national religion, the Clause protected an individual right, enforceable against the Federal Government, to be free from coercive federal establishments. Incorporation of this individual right, the argument goes, makes sense.
...
But even assuming that the Establishment Clause precludes the Federal Government from establishing a national religion, it does not follow that the Clause created or protects any individual right. For the reasons discussed above, it is more likely that States and only States were the direct beneficiaries. ... Moreover, incorporation of this putative individual right leads to a peculiar outcome: It would prohibit precisely what the Establishment Clause was intended to protect--state establishments of religion.
...
I would welcome the opportunity to consider more fully the difficult questions whether and how the Establishment Clause applies against the States. One observation suffices for now: As strange as it sounds, an incorporated Establishment Clause prohibits exactly what the Establishment Clause protected--state practices that pertain to "an establishment of religion."
(The emphasis is Justice Thomas's. Justice Scalia did not participate in the Pledge case.)

The theme appears again in the Ten Commandments cases, McCREARY COUNTY, KENTUCKY v. AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION OF KENTUCKY and VAN ORDEN v. PERRY. Justice Thomas wrote a concurring opinion in the latter of these cases:
This case would be easy if the Court were willing to abandon the inconsistent guideposts it has adopted for addressing Establishment Clause challenges, and return to the original meaning of the Clause. I have previously suggested that the Clause's text and history "resis[t] incorporation" against the States.
The other justices paid little attention to Justice Thomas's position, addressing his his incorporation views briefly or in footnotes.
 

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