Split Thread Scottish Independence

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Why?

Mostly the principles of self-determination and democracy.

If I decide that I want my house to be independent from the rest of the UK, with all that that entails, should the rest of the UK and its government have a say in whether that should be so? What if it's all the residents of my street? My town? County?

And gay marriage will lead to polygamous and incestuous marriage.

 

[Ashles]

The oil that is in our waters would be ours and the oil in yours would be yours.

Well this is naive to the point of childishness.

There is no doubt whatsoever that the debate regarding oil would be more complicated than this.
For a start I assume there has been non-Scottish investment in the oil extraction and transportation structures and systems. Are they supposed to just leave these all in place for you? Are you going to pay for them?
If they remove them where does the investment come from to rebuild them?

I'm all for getting all the military out of the country and you can take back whatever the hell you want. Take your Trident and all that other nonsense as well.

Well a lot of your fellow countymen might have a slightly more complex viewpoint as to 'Trident and all that other nonsense'. Because a lot of people see it as still somewhat important.

If the UK govt want to keep the military in the country on security grounds then they can if thats what we want

It's nice to see you have been put in charge of all these decisions.

There is significant military importance to some of the routes around Scotland - again it is massively naive to think that England is just going to leave this area defended according to how Scotland decides.
It just won't happen. Now you may be happy with this due to your totally anti-English stance, but how do you see this working in reality?
Scotland does not have anything like the military presence England does - how are these vital routes to be defended?

If the nationalists started talking more rationally about Independence, and less like the situation was Apartheid South Africa, there may be more sympathy.

Mmmmmmmmmmmm.... hyperbole. How exactly are they irrational when talking about it?

Oh let's see:

Let me be honest: I welcome this kind of view.

No, really, I do.

Because if there's one thing guaranteed to produce Scottish independence it's this kind of "English Raj", bugger all you damned Celts, there's only 10m of you anyway, viewpoint.

Go, Tories, Go!

Helpful stuff indeed. The strawman positions are really quite apalling on this thread.

The whole of the UK has been under the leadership of Scottish men for the last 13 years. You're not exactly opressed.

If you want independence I, like the other posters here, would happily vote for it. But I have to be honest from your posts in this thread it does't sound like you have a very clear idea of how it would work other than you want nothing to do with England and that's it.

If you agreed independence and only then started negotiating details you would be at a massive disadvantage - it makes far more sense to agree mutually acceptable terms, then seperate - which again, as you'll notice, no-one in this thread has any issue with Scotland doing.

And maybe this is the other reason the SNP wasn't allowed on the leadeship debates - the discussion could end up being continually dragged to the same single subject of Scottish independence.
Like this thread has been.

 

[Darat]

You should have zero say on the future of the Scotland as an independent nation, just as I should have zero say on the same issue for England.

You think the whole of the UK should get to vote on Scottish independence?

I think the people that would be affected by a massive change to the UK - for instance like the initial decision to join the EEC should have a say inthe future of the country.

 

[Darat]

Mmmmmmmmmmmm.... hyperbole. How exactly are they irrational when talking about it?



Terms of division? Thats a classic. You think we would be like the woman in a divorce case and try and rape the coffers? I dont want anything from you and neither do most Scots. Just a chance to run our own affairs.

OK, for those who think that the English should have a say in Scotlands referendum for independence, remind me again why Salmond was not given a chance to debate this nationally with the other leaders?

If independence is a national issue then he should have been there.

Your prejudices are showing again.

 

[Darat]

I entirely understand your point; I find your analogy to a woman in divorce case lazy; but I was under the (clearly mistaken) impression this thread was about the televised prime ministerial debates.

It is and we've gone quite off-topic - sorry, I'll shut up now!

 

[Lothian]

Re: Cameron's proposals for reform of westminster. The tories plan to have voties for English only matters confied to English MPs. Seems a good idea to me.

We should also pay the Scottish, Welsh and Irish MPs less as they are not doing the full job of a proper MP and are reallly just part timers.

 

[Fiona]

I disagree. In fact I think this illustrates the problem which frustrates so many

The UK parliament is NOT the english parliament. If they wish to have an english parliament there is nothing to stop them and it seems to me to make a lot of sense.

Apparently they do not want one, however. I have no idea why not. But while we have a UK parliament I see no case for treating MP's from one part of the UK differently from any others.

The implicit assumption is that the UK parliament and the English parliament are one and the same: and that is one of the things which really annoys a lot of Scottish and Welsh (and probably Northern Irish people for all I know)

 

[Rat]

And gay marriage will lead to polygamous and incestuous marriage.

Is incest then a form of homosexuality? It was a rhetorical device, not a claim that all Scottish independence would lead to a slippery slope of spurious individual independence claims. It was a quantitative comparison, not qualitative.

All I was asking was why it is self-evidently silly that the rest of the UK should get any sort of say. Since I went up to county level in my question, what about Cornwall? There is a movement for Cornish independence, albeit a small one. If their numbers are sufficient, would it also be silly for the rest of the UK to have any say in their secession?

 

[funk de fino]

Well this is naive to the point of childishness.

It would only be childishness if England decided they wanted oil in Scottish territorial waters.

There is no doubt whatsoever that the debate regarding oil would be more complicated than this.
For a start I assume there has been non-Scottish investment in the oil extraction and transportation structures and systems. Are they supposed to just leave these all in place for you? Are you going to pay for them?
If they remove them where does the investment come from to rebuild them?

You have no idea about the oil industry do you? I do, I work in it. This is not Norway.

Well a lot of your fellow countymen might have a slightly more complex viewpoint as to 'Trident and all that other nonsense'. Because a lot of people see it as still somewhat important.

That would be up to them then. The SNP want rid of them.

It's nice to see you have been put in charge of all these decisions.

See above, that would be the SNP again. I know their thoughts on this though.

There is significant military importance to some of the routes around Scotland - again it is massively naive to think that England is just going to leave this area defended according to how Scotland decides.
It just won't happen. Now you may be happy with this due to your totally anti-English stance, but how do you see this working in reality?
Scotland does not have anything like the military presence England does - how are these vital routes to be defended?

So England would be able to militarily occupy Scotland? I am not anti english, I served in the military both at home in Scotland and in England. Take your cowardly insults elsewhere.

The strawman positions are really quite apalling on this thread.

see above, so very true.

The whole of the UK has been under the leadership of Scottish men for the last 13 years. You're not exactly opressed.

So what? Was Blair a Scot then?

If you want independence I, like the other posters here, would happily vote for it. But I have to be honest from your posts in this thread it does't sound like you have a very clear idea of how it would work other than you want nothing to do with England and that's it.

Now I will give you the benefit and say you are being ignorant and not lying. I have no issue with england. I want independence for my country. You have fallen into the usual trap of assuming nationalism means anti english. I could be english and living in Scotland. I coulf have an english wife. My father could be english. My relations could all live down in england.

If you agreed independence and only then started negotiating details you would be at a massive disadvantage - it makes far more sense to agree mutually acceptable terms, then seperate - which again, as you'll notice, no-one in this thread has any issue with Scotland doing.

We vote first or the rest is a waste of time.

And maybe this is the other reason the SNP wasn't allowed on the leadeship debates - the discussion could end up being continually dragged to the same single subject of Scottish independence.
Like this thread has been.

According to some (not me) it is a national issue. That is their problem. I didnt want Salmond to be involved at all.

 

[funk de fino]

I think the people that would be affected by a massive change to the UK - for instance like the initial decision to join the EEC should have a say inthe future of the country.

Then it is a national issue then?

Your prejudices are showing again.

No, that would be yours. What other words should I use to describe them?

Do you have a derogatory one I could use to reinforce your prejudice?

 

[Agatha]

So what? Was Blair a Scot then?

He was born in Edinburgh to a Scottish mother and an English father who was adopted at birth by a Scottish couple. So, yes. Not that it makes a great deal of difference to the price of fish, but you did ask.

 

[funk de fino]

He was born in Edinburgh to a Scottish mother and an English father who was adopted at birth by a Scottish couple. So, yes. Not that it makes a great deal of difference to the price of fish, but you did ask.

Was he a Scot? Did he class himself as a Scot?

 

[Agatha]

I don't know. It doesn't matter to me personally so I'm not going to spend time googling.

Though, only partly tongue-in-cheek, I suspect he would class himself as whatever seemed politically expedient at the time of asking.

 

[funk de fino]

I don't know. It doesn't matter to me personally so I'm not going to spend time googling.

Though, only partly tongue-in-cheek, I suspect he would class himself as whatever seemed politically expedient at the time of asking.

I'll give you that but his mothers family were Irish. Surely we can find a bit of Welsh in there?

 

[Agatha]

*Rolls up sleeves, prepares to delve into flights of genealogical fancy*

 

[Lothian]

I'll give you that but his mothers family were Irish. Surely we can find a bit of Welsh in there?

He was born in Scotland , he is Scottish. By adding in an extra nationality test; how he classes himself; you are committing a fallacy. Perhaps someone else can remember what the fallacy is called........

 

[Ashles]

It would only be childishness if England decided they wanted oil in Scottish territorial waters.

That completely ignored my question.
What happens to all the non-Scottish funded structures for oil exploration, extraction and transortation?

You have no idea about the oil industry do you? I do, I work in it. This is not Norway.

Then you should actually be able to answer the questions I ask. 'This is not Norway' answers nothing.

Maybe you work in the oil industry, maybe you don't. Who cares.
It's the answers to my questions I am interested in. You didn't actualy answer.

What happens to all the non-Scottish funded structures for oil exploration, extraction and transortation?

That would be up to them then. The SNP want rid of them.

So the SNP might not represent all (or even the majority) of Scottish people's opinion on certain major topics such as military defence?
How very interesting.
That sort of makes them sound like a one topic party.

See above, that would be the SNP again. I know their thoughts on this though.

See above.
Do you not care about any political decison other than 'Should Scotland be part of the UK'?
When it comes to any other political decision are you simply resigned to whatever the SNP decides?

So England would be able to militarily occupy Scotland? I am not anti english, I served in the military both at home in Scotland and in England. Take your cowardly insults elsewhere.

There were no 'cowardly insults', nice attempt at redirect - there were only fairly simple questions that you again completely fail to answer.
How are these routes to be defended?

Someone might wonder at your claimed experience in the oil industry, English and Scottish military, yet apparent inability to actually answer questions about any of them.
If I question NHS spending in Scotland will you suddenly turn out to have been a Doctor too?

I'm sue you have worked in the areas you claim, but it's pointless to mention that experience if you simply quote it instead f answering the questions.

Your experience is only of relevence if you actually answer the quesions related to that area of experience.

see above, so very true.

Totally nonsensical comment.

So what? Was Blair a Scot then?

Yes he is.

Now I will give you the benefit and say you are being ignorant and not lying. I have no issue with england. I want independence for my country. You have fallen into the usual trap of assuming nationalism means anti english.

That happens simply because when someone like you describes 'independence' you make it sound exactly like being anti-English.

I could be english and living in Scotland. I coulf have an english wife. My father could be english. My relations could all live down in england.

And that would all be irrelevant to what you actually post.

We vote first or the rest is a waste of time.

Well good luck with that. It would almost certainly leave you at a colossal disadvantage to England. But if that's what you want then fine.

According to some (not me) it is a national issue. That is their problem. I didnt want Salmond to be involved at all.

Well we agree on one thing.

 

[funk de fino]

He was born in Scotland , he is Scottish. By adding in an extra nationality test; how he classes himself; you are committing a fallacy. Perhaps someone else can remember what the fallacy is called........

Not strictly true.

 

[Ashles]

He was born in Scotland , he is Scottish. By adding in an extra nationality test; how he classes himself; you are committing a fallacy. Perhaps someone else can remember what the fallacy is called........

Not strictly true.

QED.

 

[funk de fino]

That completely ignored my question.
What happens to all the non-Scottish funded structures for oil exploration, extraction and transortation? Then you should actually be able to answer the questions I ask. 'This is not Norway' answers nothing.

Yes it does. If you knew anything about the oil industry up here you would know it is private finance. Companies pay for the slots and then pay for everything else. Nothing would change. The slots would come under Scottish control and revenues would come to us.

Maybe you work in the oil industry, maybe you don't. Who cares.
It's the answers to my questions I am interested in. You didn't actualy answer.

See above. Norway oil industry is national. It is setup completely different to the UK. If we had been norway then we would have had some problems dealing with this issue. We are not, so we won't. Unless England want to change rules on territorial waters.

What happens to all the non-Scottish funded structures for oil exploration, extraction and transortation?

See above, exactly the same as happens now.

So the SNP might not represent all (or even the majority) of Scottish people's opinion on certain major topics such as military defence?
How very interesting.
That sort of makes them sound like a one topic party.

If they were the majority party in power they would have the mandate to do what they wanted to do eh?

See above.

OK.

Do you not care about any political decison other than 'Should Scotland be part of the UK'?

Yes. Smoking bans, no nuclear weapons, join the euro, free prescriptions, free care for the elderly, more police, more teachers, more money in the NHS, crackdown on knife crime, more green energy, cheaper fuel, free nursery places, etc etc.

When it comes to any other political decision are you simply resigned to whatever the SNP decides?

If they are voted in as the majority party in power. Same as we are in the UK at the moment.

There were no 'cowardly insults', nice attempt at redirect - there were only fairly simple questions that you again completely fail to answer.
How are these routes to be defended?

Your cowardly insult was the anti english one. I note you have ignored it here. As for defence, that would be up to the Scottish govt.

Someone might wonder at your claimed experience in the oil industry, English and Scottish military, yet apparent inability to actually answer questions about any of them.

Wonder all you want. It was the UK military actually.

If I question NHS spending in Scotland will you suddenly turn out to have been a Doctor too?

See earlier cowardly insults remark.

I'm sue you have worked in the areas you claim, but it's pointless to mention that experience if you simply quote it instead f answering the questions.

See above.

Your experience is only of relevence if you actually answer the quesions related to that area of experience.

Echo?

Totally nonsensical comment.

Anti english is a strawman.

Yes he is.

That happens simply because when someone like you describes 'independence' you make it sound exactly like being anti-English.

Someone like me? He he he. True colours eh? I am not anti english. If you need that comfort blanket to make you feel better then carry on. Its a cowardly insult.

And that would all be irrelevant to what you actually post.

Why?

Well good luck with that. It would almost certainly leave you at a colossal disadvantage to England. But if that's what you want then fine.

How so?

Well we agree on one thing.

Hurrah