Split Thread Scorpion's Spiritualism

[Gamolon]

The angels of karma can undoubtedly see into the future, and they know some people are going to do evil.

How is being put in an incarnation with a predetermined outcome the same as being able to make choices and living with the results of those choices?

You just admitted that in your world, spirit or physical, all souls have no choices whatsoever. That everyone is put into an incarnation with a predetermined outcome.

 

[Scorpion]

And how many people have you converted to spiritualism by doing this in those 18 years?

I cannot say, but I know I converted one Muslim. He said at first he thought I was hateful, but he eventually realized the Quran was full of untruths, and he became an atheist.

 

[Gamolon]

The bad actions may be predictable but they are still the free choice of the soul.

That is completely false based on what you just said. You just said that "The angels of karma can undoubtedly see into the future, and they know some people are going to do evil."

"Predictable" and "seeing the future" are two completely different things.

 

[Scorpion]

How is being put in an incarnation with a predetermined outcome the same as being able to make choices and living with the results of those choices?

You just admitted that in your world, spirit or physical, all souls have no choices whatsoever. That everyone is put into an incarnation with a predetermined outcome.

It is arguable that angels knowing the future are predetermining our fate. But it is also our free will to make those actions, and reap what we sow.

 

[JayUtah]

The angels of karma can undoubtedly see into the future...

How do you know that?

Those evil people may be instrumental in causing suffering that pays some other souls karma. The bad actions may be predictable but they are still the free choice of the soul.

But they achieved a good result, the result desired and expected by those who put them there. So do they still get a karma hit? Again, because you haven't reconciled the discrepancies between the roles of suffering in your model, you still haven't worked through all the moral arguments. You're still in make-it-up-as-you-go mode. When you add a supernatural agent that moves people around where their inevitable actions have either good or bad results, you don't get to pin the moral consequences back on the pawns.

 

[JayUtah]

It is arguable that angels knowing the future are predetermining our fate. But it is also our free will to make those actions, and reap what we sow.

You didn't answer the question. If some supernatural agent arranges for my evil to have a positive effect, why am I still punished for it?

 

[Gamolon]

It is arguable that angels knowing the future are predetermining our fate. But it is also our free will to make those actions, and reap what we sow.

No, that's NOT what you said.

The angels of karma can undoubtedly see into the future, and they know some people are going to do evil.

Why are you suddenly backpedaling?

 

[Darat]

We act and react together over what some spirit guides say is thousands of lives. We cause suffering when we are unevolved, and try to help others as we grow more spiritual. If there is injustice in war it is compensated for in future incarnations. We are on a long journey together. What Herman Hesse described as, the journey to the East. But it ultimately results in all souls being redeemed. We will eventually all be united in a higher realm of existence.

What colour are onions in your world?

 

[Scorpion]

How do you know that?

I know for certain that some spirit can see into the future, because that spirit gave me the lottery numbers in advance. I do not think it could have been a departed relative, as they would not be advanced enough to see into the future, and they would not be allowed to give me a lottery win even if they could.

I think it was an angel of karma that told me I would win.

 

[Scorpion]

You didn't answer the question. If some supernatural agent arranges for my evil to have a positive effect, why am I still punished for it?

They don't arrange it, they allow it.

 

[Darat]

Your favorite line again. Is that the worst thing you can think of?

Like I say if there is injustice it will be compensated for in future incarnations of that unfortunate soul. They will have beneficial experiences in future lives, that will help heal the damage to their soul.

It is something that was in the news when I first asked you about it.

But that aside you of course did not answer what I asked you to explain.

 

[Pixel42]

I cannot say, but I know I converted one Muslim. He said at first he thought I was hateful, but he eventually realized the Quran was full of untruths, and he became an atheist.

So that's zero converts to spiritualism, then. And surely converting someone from theist to atheist is not going to please your angels of karma.

 

[Gamolon]

It is arguable that angels knowing the future are predetermining our fate.

You are contradicting yourself Scorpion. You said previously:

The angels of karma can undoubtedly see into the future, and they know some people are going to do evil.

An Angel of Karma putting a soul into an incarnation that they KNOW is going to do evil is predetermining the soul's fate.

You can't squirm out of this one.

 

[JayUtah]

I know for certain that some spirit can see into the future, because that spirit gave me the lottery numbers in advance.

That was circular reasoning, as I've pointed out time and again.

I think it was an angel of karma that told me I would win.

I didn't ask what you claimed to know. I asked by what means you know it. I don't want to hear endless claims. I want you to tell me why the claims are true.

 

[Darat]

I know for certain that some spirit can see into the future, because that spirit gave me the lottery numbers in advance. I do not think it could have been a departed relative, as they would not be advanced enough to see into the future, and they would not be allowed to give me a lottery win even if they could.



I think it was an angel of karma that told me I would win.

Why was it a female voice?

 

[Scorpion]

So that's zero converts to spiritualism, then. And surely converting someone from theist to atheist is not going to please your angels of karma.

I have no idea what effect I may have had on anyone. But I think the Quran is evil lies about God that needs to be undermined.
I do not think atheists are in the angels black book. This is an age of reason, and we are making great intellectual advances. You are all doing what you are meant to do. There will doubtlessly be another time in the future where there will be a swing back to more spiritual beliefs. History teaches us these things go in cycles.

 

[Scorpion]

Why was it a female voice?

I don't know, but it was definitely female sounding. The voice spoke to me twice.
Earlier in the week in 1998 it said "help is coming from an unexpected source" and one hour before the lottery draw it said "you won".

It has never spoken to me again. Presumably I am now left to my own devices.

 

[Gamolon]

They don't arrange it, they allow it.

Soul A needs to suffer.
Soul B will provide Soul A's suffering as seen by the Karma Angel.
Soul A is put into its incarnation.
Soul B is put into its incarnation.

Soul B makes Soul A suffer as predetermined by the future looking Karma Angel.

That means "arranged" no matter how much you don't want it to.

 

[JayUtah]

They don't arrange it, they allow it.

Except here's what you said.

Reincarnation is ruled over by the angels of karma. ...They are dispassionate and do not hesitate to send us into harsh circumstances because they know the immortal soul benefits from all kinds of experiences.

How can they "rule over" something without having any discretionary power over it? And now you're telling us that this discretion takes the form of pairing "evil" people with people who they have decided need the consequences of evil wrought upon them in order to work off their karma.

 

[Scorpion]

You are contradicting yourself Scorpion. You said previously:


An Angel of Karma putting a soul into an incarnation that they KNOW is going to do evil is predetermining the soul's fate.

You can't squirm out of this one.

As I say its arguable. We can have free will to act, but because of what we are, or because of the state of evolution of our soul. It can be inevitable we will do evil.

The angels can see all this, and know what is going to happen, but they do not cause it or prevent it. I believe they take the long view in that they can see everything is going to work out for the ultimate good.