Maybe you are missing something. And there you go again calling me names,. Now you have added nasty to rude.
So you don't think calling someone a philistine because they disagree with your opinions is nasty? I do. I wouldn't call you nasty if you weren't being nasty Scorpion, it's pretty obvious cause and effect. Remember, I had not previously insulted you before you started flinging insults at me. Telling someone "Hey, that's kind of rude you know" is not an insult. That you are now accusing me of calling you names when you have called me a Philistine is the height of irony.
You resurrected my thread to talk to me but all you seem to want to do is chip away at my beliefs , and grind me down.
No, I want to discuss your beliefs with a critical mindset. That's what this forum is for. I want you to think critically about your beliefs. That doesn't mean I want you to abandon them, I just want you to think about some of the things you claim absolute knowledge of despite the lack of evidence.
Look, going back to Islam again (I'll get to why later, don't worry) let's say that you were on the forum and someone rocked up to a thread you were engaging in and told you that you were totally wrong about spirituality and that Islam was the one true path. I imagine you would disagree, and maybe ask why they think so.
So they tell you that they have read the Quran and Allah's love filled them and they have prayed to Allah for certain things and been granted these things.
Well you say, that's kind of weak sauce if you want to convince anyone else. I mean, you do you if you want and I don't begrudge you your beliefs but I think you're wrong because X Y and Z.
Ah, they say, it might not be enough to convince you, but they have personally felt Allah. They know he is real because they have had experiences where they have felt him and he is real.
So you tell them well, what if you're wrong about the source of these feelings? You're sure that they have had the experiences that they are claiming are the work of Allah, but maybe they are misremembering some details, or simply attributing other things to Allah?
Do you get the parallel yet?
There are billions of people in the world who believe differently to both you and I. Many of these people feel that they have been in direct communication with their god, or have had direct experience of certain mystical concepts that they believe in. They can't all be right, so how do we go about determining who is correct?
This is where sc(k)epticism comes in. We look at things sceptically and we can determine the false positives from the real positives and we can be sure that we are able to grasp reality more firmly than someone who is not sceptical. Sure, sometimes a correct but poorly supported idea will be rejected by a sceptic - at first, but when the evidence mounts up for it it will be accepted and will possibly dislodge an incorrect idea.
I don't say that there is no such being as a god of any kind. That would be ultimate hubris and just not a sceptical position to take. However I don't believe in any god until I have evidence for him/her/it/them. I don't choose to accept that psychics are real because 1. There's no evidence for it, and because most psychics run away from any attempt to test them there likely won't be (the ones who do get tested always fail) and 2. There are other, much more parsimonious explanations for how they can do what they do. Cold and hot reading, law of large numbers, all sorts of other parlour tricks and scams that can replicate the effect.
In fact let me tell you a little story. I am not a mentalist. I can do a few basic card tricks but I'm in no way a magician and I am absolutely not a psychic. I've never studied cold reading in depth and the following is the first time I've ever even attempted anything like this.
One day at work I was having a conversation with a couple of my coworkers about the various scams that psychics use and how I don't believe in them, and I spur of the moment offered to do a "reading" for one of them. A young lad called Cameron volunteered and was a good sport about the whole thing, so I said ok, give me a couple of minutes and I'll do you a reading.
So I sat next to him and said that I was getting an older man who looked a lot like him, not a brother or father or grandfather, but some male relative like an uncle or cousin. I then proceeded to guess the first letter of his name (correctly) and within a few guesses (3 I believe) had nailed his first name. It was something ludicrously common like James. I then proceeded to tell him how his uncle James had had a very similar sense of humour to him, and that the two of them would often share jokes and were extremely close and were even remarked upon to be extremely alike by the family. I told him that James had passed quite suddenly and that it was a shock, and that the whole family missed him because he was such a fun guy and a real character, and then told him that James wished him well and said something vague about something I already knew Cameron was thinking of doing.
Apparently I was so good that I freaked out several of my coworkers, although Cameron said that while the reading was very accurate he knew I was basically running a con and it didn't shake him as much as it would have had I not talked for a good hour about why psychics were frauds. Turns out that because a couple of my coworkers had known Cameron for years they were also aware of Uncle James and I had got him spot on.
Now this is obviously an unverifiable story, so take it with a grain of salt if you will, but it showed to me at least that someone without a moment of training and with a handful of minutes to steel themselves could perform an (apparently) flawless psychic read on someone that they only knew professionally that could freak out people who also knew them socially because of how accurate it was. This illustrates why I don't believe in psychics, and won't believe until one of them passes a controlled, scientific study.
As far as I am concerned the nice bits in the Quran are just an attempt to catch more fly's with honey than vinegar.
Why isn't the Bible like that also?
The teachings of Jesus are a great spiritual message to the world
Really? Even the bit where he gets pissy and curses an olive tree because it isn't fruiting out of season and he wants some damn olives now?
How about the bit where he throws a huge hissy fit over people selling sacrificial animals in the temple for people to sacrifice at Passover and chases them out with a whip and chucks their stuff all over the floor?
Or the bit where he passive-aggressively tells off the entire Jewish world in general, and his disciples in particular for not killing disobedient children?
Or the bit where he talks about how Noah and the flood were not only real events (they weren't) but that god was justified in almost wiping out humanity?
Or the part where Jesus says that the reason he uses parables instead of plain speaking is because it will confuse some people and send them to hell?
Or the part where he says that he has come to make people hate and fight their own family members because he has come not to send peace but with a sword?
Or the bit where he says most people will be tortured for eternity in hell and he has no problem with that?
Or maybe the part where he talks about how the cruelty and violence in the old testament was a-ok with him.
Or the bit where he tells everyone that God should be feared because he can and will utterly destroy you.
Jesus (if he even existed) was a human who sometimes said nice things and sometimes said monstrous things, just like Mohammed.
Muslims think the Quran is the words of God,
Just like Christians do (well, many of them anyway).
and if it is then God is an insane monster.
Just like the god of the Bible.
Read the verses of hell I posted and you will see why I have that view.
Again, just like in the Bible. Outer darkness, unquenchable fire, wailing and gnashing of teeth etc etc.
As far as I am concerned Muhammad made up those verses to scare people into fighting his battles and winning him booty.
Much like the authors of the bible made it all up to convince people to follow them and obediently do what they said and give them money.
Since you are an atheist I don't see why you would defend the Quran.
You misunderstand, I'm not defending the Quran, I'm pointing out that it is no worse than the Bible, a book which you have explicitly said is in part spiritually uplifting and inspired by the spirit world and/or god.
I'm not defending the Quran, I'm pointing out that you can't have it both ways. Either you can take the good out of the Bible AND the Quran and condemn the nasty bits or you paint them both as monstrous because of the horrible bits. You can't treat one one way and the other a different way just because you have a bee in your bonnet about Islam.
I just read through my copy of that Upanishad and I cannot even find that verse. Maybe it was edited out.
Quite possibly, it may have been edited out to make it seem more palatable to people who don't like spousal abuse and marital rape. Doesn't mean it isn't from the books that you consider spiritually uplifting.
Again though as I stated, the Upanishads aren't even the mystical books of Hinduism. They're philosophical treatises on the actual holy books. The actual holy books by the way are ALL about the violence. They're action packed and full of fight scenes.
