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Score a Big one for Science! "Homeopathy does not work."

It's ambivalent.
Either infinitely diluted ham will only become less kosher because diluting it makes it more powerful...
Or the 'like cures like' principle kicks in and you can use the memory of pork trapped in water to kosherize meals.

Consult either a rabbi or a charcutier, but not a homeopath, they're all frauds anyway.
 
I've been thinking of selling homeopathic-ham as a method of making non-kosher meals into kosher one. One dilutes a mix of ham, shellfish, milk+beef, etc. 30C. Then any observant Jewish or Muslim person can carry the product around, stir it in with any meal, and it will suck the violating ingredients right out of any non-kosher or non-halal food.

What do you think?

BTW- I am Jewish, at least by heritage if not by belief, so I am not making fun of Judaism (or Islam). I am making fun of all religions.

I think it would only matter if you told them after they had eaten it and video the results. Preferably a day or two after, so they would have fully digested it.

Sometimes one has to be cruel to be kind.
 
I think it would only matter if you told them after they had eaten it and video the results. Preferably a day or two after, so they would have fully digested it.

Sometimes one has to be cruel to be kind.

In Judaism (I don't know about Islam) if you are fooled into eating a non-kosher meal the sin lies on the person fooling you, not on you,
 
In Judaism (I don't know about Islam) if you are fooled into eating a non-kosher meal the sin lies on the person fooling you, not on you,
I'm an atheist. What weight do you think that holds for me?

It is all superstitious nonsense. Pork is tasty. When jebus drove a herd of pigs over a cliff for spurious reasons, one must wonder why jews were herding pigs. Or why there were any herds of pigs in the ancient levant to drive over any cliffs. Surely it couldn't be subsistence agriculture? Heaven forfend.
 
I'm an atheist. What weight do you think that holds for me?

It is all superstitious nonsense. Pork is tasty. When jebus drove a herd of pigs over a cliff for spurious reasons, one must wonder why jews were herding pigs. Or why there were any herds of pigs in the ancient levant to drive over any cliffs. Surely it couldn't be subsistence agriculture? Heaven forfend.

Along similar lines, consider this question.

Who was the prodigal son working for when he took care of pigs?

Same problem. The Hebrews did not raise pigs. So where did this herd of pigs come from? And why couldn't the prodigal son share some of the slop with the pigs? Apparently, he wasn't allowed any of the food fed to the pigs. Nor could he share in the pig flesh. The pig owners could have paid the fellow in pork. Having rejected Hebrew tradition by leaving the family, he could have eaten the same food as the unnamed owners. So apparently this poor Hebrew worker was being starved by the insensitive owners for the sake of their bacon. Furthermore, why did the Bible even mention the pigs in this story? Yes, he was starving. However, you can starve even easier when you are unemployed. So the Bible could have said that he was unemployed, or harvested grain, or worked in a mine, or a dozen other places where poor people go. So maybe the parable is making a political point when it says that the prodigal son envied the pigs.

It was the Romans, or people working for the Romans, that were herding the pigs. So Jesus's miracle could be interpreted as a political statement against Roman occupation. It could be interpreted as saying, 'Don't adapt the customs of the Romans'. However, that doesn't explain why Jesus would be especially down on pigs.

Marvin Harris hypothesizes that pigs are 'unclean' in desert societies because they are ecologically inefficient sources of nutrition. They eat the same food that human beings eat. So if some of the calories of work energy available in any food are wasted for human beings when it is devoured through a pig.

Pigs are more useful in climates that have forests because the pig can get food from places where humans beings can't go. Pigs are useful in temperate climates because pigs reproduce faster than most livestock. So they concentrate free energy into a small volume in a very short time. One has to eat a lot of apples in order to get the same nutrition as an ounce of pig fat.

Children grow larger and stronger on meat then they do on bread and fruit. You can support more people on a diet of bread and fruit, but the adults will be more lightweight than on a diet of meat. So if you are the military sort of society, you want to get your calories from meat. Cattle and sheep are good sources of calories, but they don't grow and reproduce as fast as pigs. Further, cattle and sheep eat grass. Grass can not be directly eaten by humans. So unless you have lots of grassland available, as some of the Middle East people had, you need pigs. So a soldier is going to find pig nutrition a lot more useable than cattle and sheep in the arid climates.

If Marvin Harris is correct, then a herd of pigs would have been specifically offensive to the poor people in this arid environment. Poor people would resent the good food (e.g., meat, fruit, wheat) being fed to the pigs. The Romans would get most of the pig meat anyway, because it is more expensive. The Romans had to take food from their poor subjects to feed their pigs!

Marvin Harris points out that this is a key part of the 'Prodigal Son' story. The prodigal son leaves his father (i.e., his tradition) to become a pig herder. However, he is not allowed to eat any of the food that he is obliged to give the pigs. He envies the pigs for the slop that he is forced to give them!

So when Legion (Roman Legion?) is possessed by demons, Jesus passes them on to the food of their oppressors. He drowns the pigs. By doign so, he was indirectly feeding the poor Hebrews that are ruled by the Romans. With fewer pigs around, the slop would be available to the poor masses (including the prodigal son).

I was wondering whether the name Legion really is a cognate of the Roman word legion. I doubt that it would have been a common name for Hebrews, or even other Semites in the region.

Jesus could have banished the demons into an abstract Hell, or dragged them into the sky, or buried them, or buried the demons. The choice of cursing pigs seems rather arbitrary from the standpoint of modern religion.

I note that a lot of Christians don't see the Romans of ancient times as sinners. They refuse to believe that Jesus had any problem with the Romans. In their way of thinking, the Roman soldiers were merely being forced to persecute Jesus by those mean Jews.

So they don't like to analyze why Jesus expressed himself the way that he did. They look at me crazy when I ask, 'Why drown the pigs?' Or even, 'Who was the Prodigal son working for?"

Religious people prefer to interpret the stories in terms of their immediate culture. They don't like to ask questions about the common people that are the cultural background of the Bible. Secular anthropologists are a little better. Secular scholars try to find out how people of different cultures and classes interacted. Religious scholars try to ignore the common people whenever they could.
 
Not quite on topic, but something that occurs to me.

Is the list of ingredients on products supposed to be indicative rather than exhaustive? I just wonder how manufacturers can get away with selling, for instance, 30C Arnica, which will have no discernible trace of Arnica in it?

If I see a list of ingredients, I kind of expect all those things to be in there. If I bought a ham sandwich with no ham in it, I would be rightly annoyed, and could probably claim for false labelling or something.

I assume that medicines are somehow different?


If it's labeled as 30C Arnica, it shouldn't have any Arnica in it. That's what 30C means. If something labelled as 30C Arnica has Arnica in it, it has either been incorrectly labeled or incompetently prepared.
 
If I see a list of ingredients, I kind of expect all those things to be in there. If I bought a ham sandwich with no ham in it, I would be rightly annoyed, and could probably claim for false labelling or something.

Well, a homeopathic baloney sandwich is still full of baloney.
 
If it's labeled as 30C Arnica, it shouldn't have any Arnica in it. That's what 30C means. If something labelled as 30C Arnica has Arnica in it, it has either been incorrectly labeled or incompetently prepared.

But that's what I mean. Most products have labels on them to show what is in them, not what isn't. Why are homeopathic products different?

If you're allowed to put things on the label that aren't in the product, it just makes a mockery of the whole label doesn't it? Ham Sandwich. Ingredients: Bread, Ham. If the Ham is just hypothetical, all you've got is 2 slices of bread, a very angry customer, and I would imagine some kind of legal trouble.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, why is it that the manufacturers of Arnica 30C are not required to show that their product actually contains some Arnica?

(I know it doesn't, but the label implies otherwise)
 
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It's ambivalent.
Either infinitely diluted ham will only become less kosher because diluting it makes it more powerful...
Or the 'like cures like' principle kicks in and you can use the memory of pork trapped in water to kosherize meals.

Consult either a rabbi or a charcutier, but not a homeopath, they're all frauds anyway.

And have someone get pictures of the Rabbi's face when asking this, I'm sure they will be priceless. :D
 
But that's what I mean. Most products have labels on them to show what is in them, not what isn't. Why are homeopathic products different?

If you're allowed to put things on the label that aren't in the product, it just makes a mockery of the whole label doesn't it? Ham Sandwich. Ingredients: Bread, Ham. If the Ham is just hypothetical, all you've got is 2 slices of bread, a very angry customer, and I would imagine some kind of legal trouble.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, why is it that the manufacturers of Arnica 30C are not required to show that their product actually contains some Arnica?

(I know it doesn't, but the label implies otherwise)


If the label on your ham sandwich said "no mustard" would you require the manufacturer to show that it actually contained some mustard?
 
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So are we saying that '30c Arnica' is somehow code for 'No Arnica' that everyone should just implicitly understand? Because Arnica labels don't read to me like 'no mustard', they read like 'mustard'.

Rolfe's label is a good example. It listed the contents as : Sucrose, lactose. Nothing about Belladonna. (on the contents list that is, it's definitely on the label in general)

Looks like a similar discussion took place on that thread, but with no real resolution.

Take this example of 30C Arnica (last page of linked pdf).

Each pillule contains 30c Arnica Montana. Also contains: Lactose and Sucrose.

I paid for Arnica. I want my Arnica. Where is it? Am I supposed to have detailed knowledge of Homeopathic dilution levels to know at what point the active ingredient disappears, and therefore listing '30C Arnica' is in reality saying 'absolutely no Arnica included'?

I'm not trying to be awkward, I genuinely don't understand. Basically every other consumable product on sale contains a fairly exhaustive list of what is contained, and many contain warnings about things that might be there (may contain nuts) but I'm not aware of any other group of products that list completely hypothetical ingredients, that in fact are intentionally not part of the product as a result of the manufacturing process.
 
I'm not trying to be awkward, I genuinely don't understand. Basically every other consumable product on sale contains a fairly exhaustive list of what is contained, and many contain warnings about things that might be there (may contain nuts) but I'm not aware of any other group of products that list completely hypothetical ingredients, that in fact are intentionally not part of the product as a result of the manufacturing process.


There's a whole class of remedies known as "imponderables" that you might be interested in.
 
Along similar lines, consider this question.

Who was the prodigal son working for when he took care of pigs?

Same problem. The Hebrews did not raise pigs. So where did this herd of pigs come from? And why couldn't the prodigal son share some of the slop with the pigs? Apparently, he wasn't allowed any of the food fed to the pigs. Nor could he share in the pig flesh. The pig owners could have paid the fellow in pork. Having rejected Hebrew tradition by leaving the family, he could have eaten the same food as the unnamed owners. So apparently this poor Hebrew worker was being starved by the insensitive owners for the sake of their bacon. Furthermore, why did the Bible even mention the pigs in this story? Yes, he was starving. However, you can starve even easier when you are unemployed. So the Bible could have said that he was unemployed, or harvested grain, or worked in a mine, or a dozen other places where poor people go. So maybe the parable is making a political point when it says that the prodigal son envied the pigs.

It was the Romans, or people working for the Romans, that were herding the pigs. So Jesus's miracle could be interpreted as a political statement against Roman occupation. It could be interpreted as saying, 'Don't adapt the customs of the Romans'. However, that doesn't explain why Jesus would be especially down on pigs.

Marvin Harris hypothesizes that pigs are 'unclean' in desert societies because they are ecologically inefficient sources of nutrition. They eat the same food that human beings eat. So if some of the calories of work energy available in any food are wasted for human beings when it is devoured through a pig.

Pigs are more useful in climates that have forests because the pig can get food from places where humans beings can't go. Pigs are useful in temperate climates because pigs reproduce faster than most livestock. So they concentrate free energy into a small volume in a very short time. One has to eat a lot of apples in order to get the same nutrition as an ounce of pig fat.

Children grow larger and stronger on meat then they do on bread and fruit. You can support more people on a diet of bread and fruit, but the adults will be more lightweight than on a diet of meat. So if you are the military sort of society, you want to get your calories from meat. Cattle and sheep are good sources of calories, but they don't grow and reproduce as fast as pigs. Further, cattle and sheep eat grass. Grass can not be directly eaten by humans. So unless you have lots of grassland available, as some of the Middle East people had, you need pigs. So a soldier is going to find pig nutrition a lot more useable than cattle and sheep in the arid climates.

If Marvin Harris is correct, then a herd of pigs would have been specifically offensive to the poor people in this arid environment. Poor people would resent the good food (e.g., meat, fruit, wheat) being fed to the pigs. The Romans would get most of the pig meat anyway, because it is more expensive. The Romans had to take food from their poor subjects to feed their pigs!

Marvin Harris points out that this is a key part of the 'Prodigal Son' story. The prodigal son leaves his father (i.e., his tradition) to become a pig herder. However, he is not allowed to eat any of the food that he is obliged to give the pigs. He envies the pigs for the slop that he is forced to give them!

So when Legion (Roman Legion?) is possessed by demons, Jesus passes them on to the food of their oppressors. He drowns the pigs. By doign so, he was indirectly feeding the poor Hebrews that are ruled by the Romans. With fewer pigs around, the slop would be available to the poor masses (including the prodigal son).

I was wondering whether the name Legion really is a cognate of the Roman word legion. I doubt that it would have been a common name for Hebrews, or even other Semites in the region.

Jesus could have banished the demons into an abstract Hell, or dragged them into the sky, or buried them, or buried the demons. The choice of cursing pigs seems rather arbitrary from the standpoint of modern religion.

I note that a lot of Christians don't see the Romans of ancient times as sinners. They refuse to believe that Jesus had any problem with the Romans. In their way of thinking, the Roman soldiers were merely being forced to persecute Jesus by those mean Jews.

So they don't like to analyze why Jesus expressed himself the way that he did. They look at me crazy when I ask, 'Why drown the pigs?' Or even, 'Who was the Prodigal son working for?"

Religious people prefer to interpret the stories in terms of their immediate culture. They don't like to ask questions about the common people that are the cultural background of the Bible. Secular anthropologists are a little better. Secular scholars try to find out how people of different cultures and classes interacted. Religious scholars try to ignore the common people whenever they could.

Can open, worms everywhere.

I guess it is simply the law of unintended consequences. If a believer wants to claim anything at all about driving a herd of pigs of a cliff, the inevitable question is why would there actually be any herds of pigs? Some god botherer will likely be along to explain that it is a "metaphor" simultaneously chucking the accuracy of the bible under the bus.
 
If it's labeled as 30C Arnica, it shouldn't have any Arnica in it. That's what 30C means. If something labelled as 30C Arnica has Arnica in it, it has either been incorrectly labeled or incompetently prepared.

Well technically there could be trace of arnica from the solvent (often for Boiron stuff : tap water ETA: korsakov method is often employed from what I know of their labs o you can imagine how they reach 200C or 1000C ;)) , and as such it could have had arnica but be perfectly competently prepared. In fact by the same token, since it is perfectly safe drinkable water, hormone, a few radio elements, anti biotic and various substance all in traces - small enough to not be biologically relevant.
 
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Can open, worms everywhere.

I guess it is simply the law of unintended consequences. If a believer wants to claim anything at all about driving a herd of pigs of a cliff, the inevitable question is why would there actually be any herds of pigs? Some god botherer will likely be along to explain that it is a "metaphor" simultaneously chucking the accuracy of the bible under the bus.

A metaphor for what? A metaphor has to refer to something.

It seems obvious to me that 'pigs' would be a metaphor for Roman customs. Or maybe Greek customs. Since pigs were forbidden to the Hebrews, for whatever reason, the mention of pigs would immediately bring to mind the ruling nonHebrews whatever nation they came from. Since Jesus lived when Rome ruled Judea and Israel, then pigs refers to the Romans.

A Christian believer could extend this to his belief system, if he wanted to. Maybe there was a divine Jesus. He performed an real exorcism with a real man called Legion in which real pigs were drowned. However, He choses the details of his miracle. So maybe the Divine Jesus decided to off pigs as a metaphor.

The resistance to consider such possibilities may be pointing out some down to earth prejudice. The Christian may prefer to blame Jews rather than Romans. So he doesn't want to consider the idea that maybe the pigs were a metaphor for Romans.
 

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