Scientology banned from Germany

[DC]

Specifically in Germany, the state takes part of your income and gives it to the church if you are member of one of the bigger religions. it doesn't get much more systematic than that. (German catholic church is currently squibbing with the Vatican over whether leaving the "tax-association-church" ought to be a reason for excommu8nication or not. German church says yes, Vatican says no.)



See above. And yes, they still pass the plate on top of that.



And that makes them a sect? Is it really only a question of efficiency?

dang, how could i not think about that myself.
i just resently moved from a Canton where everyone had to pay for the cults to a catnon where i dont have to pay for cults.

in Basel-Land everyone had to pay 5% of the Income tax, that money was then split among the 3 accepted cults. Roman-Catholic, Evangelical, and Christcatholic or so.

in Basel-Stadt only those that are member of a cult have to pay, the 3 Christian ones have to pay 8% of the income tax and Jews even 12% of the income tax. But also here this is done by the government and not the churches themself.

Afaik the Scientologists have to pay alot lot more. but where would we set the limit? should we set a limit? would i belief in gods, they could have everything from me they wanted. i mean they are gods.

we need s plit of religion and state.

 

[DC]

They did this—banned a religion—in the 1930s and 1940s.

I guess there are some vital lessons that the Germans will never learn.

Well compared to the other religions around, scientology doesn't look smell or taste like a religion. But who is to say what is a religion and what not?
i think you have a point, even when it was a Godwin.

 

[Mojo]

But here there is often the claim that they actually are not a religion.
and i once asked one of those scientology guys that was trying to trick people into his cult.

This one's not even a religion, it's both a sect and a scheme to steal money from people.

I think that's another of these: "I have a religion, you are a member of a sect, he's in a cult."

 

[Rasmus]

I think that's another of these: "I have a religion, you are part of a sect, he's in a cult."

It's all about money and power. There is a reason that the "churches" are the foremost authorities on "cults" and "sects".

 

[DC]

I think that's another of these: "I have a religion, you are a member of a sect, he's in a cult."

guilty

 

[Fishstick]

I think that's another of these: "I have a religion, you are a member of a sect, he's in a cult."

Well, Hubbard himself said it wasn't a religion, so. Afaik there's no form of prayer or worship either.

 

[GrandMasterFox]

Other religions aren't based on taking your money, at least not in the same systematic way Scientology is.

Nope, it's the plenty of other religions. The part about giving 10% of everything you own comes from the OT. Heck even today you have it based on mandatory payments in many places around the world.

If you get hooked by Scientology, you can get bankrupt very fast, and in debt in the tens of thousands of dollars.

Same was said for Kabala and many other places. Heck, have you read what Jesus said about giving away everything you own?

It's not an issue of the religion, it's an issue of what suckers you pluck in.

The difference is that the people who go into scientology are simply more willing to pay. That's about it. They weren't raised into the religion for the most part, these are people that were recurited and therefore (in my completely unevidenced opinion) more vulnerable to giving away their hard earned money.

The pope love to drain that much money, he just knows he won't get away with it.

And another thing, as far as I know, Scientology is the only "religion" that you need to pay to know more about. Go to any mosque, church or synagogue, and they'll gladly tell you everything you want to know about the religion for free.

Absolutely false.
The second lesson you'll learn in any Kabala institute (after the bs emet rule) is a man is "unprepered" to learn everything just like a baby is not ready to learn physics. Therefore, you have to gradually take things over time.

I.E learn more and more by spending more time and money in the place till we're sure you're hooked enough in the scam so the more abusrd stuff won't sound so absurd.

I think that's another of "I have a religion, you are a member of a sect, he's in a cult."

Preety much. The difference between a cult and a religion is the amount of participants. That's about it.

 

[GrandMasterFox]

Well, Hubbard himself said it wasn't a religion, so. Afaik there's no form of prayer or worship either.

I don't know much about scientology but don't they deal with meditation and all sorts of new age crap?

Again, for this discussion to move forword, some agreed definition of "religion" needs to be placed first.

 

[DC]

From wiki:

The word cult pejoratively refers to a group whose beliefs or practices are considered abnormal or bizarre.

so i will give my best to not use the word religion anymore and only speak about Cults.

 

[Mojo]

Father Dougal: God Ted, I've heard about those cults. Everyone dressing in black and saying our Lord's going to come back and judge us all.
Father Ted: No...no Dougal, that's us. That's Catholicism you're talking about there.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Father_Ted

 

[armageddonman]

An expert on dangerous cults informed me that Germany has Banned Scientology in all forms.

is this true?

on a serious note, should scientology be protected under freedom of religion? or should we ban them? and why?


PS: i know they didn't, but there are attempts to do so.

Not true. It would have been plastered all over the national news and Sciontology would have been very vocal with condemning such a move.

Scientology was a big topic in Germany the late 80s and 90s but since there are hardly any active members left and their centres are either being closed or are slowly gathering dust, Scientology isn't really an interesting topic anymore.

It was fun for a while. I had a blast distributing the Xenu-leaflets at Scientology events in Munich in the mid 90s. The Sciontologists I got to talk to wer hilariously ignorant people.

 

[Aepervius]

Good thing they don't apply that to the letter.

And another thing, as far as I know, Scientology is the only "religion" that you need to pay to know more about. Go to any mosque, church or synagogue, and they'll gladly tell you everything you want to know about the religion for free.

They *used* to apply that to the letter. Middle age for example.

ETA: Heck reading wiki it seems it was applied long after the middle age in some countries.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Nope, it's the plenty of other religions. The part about giving 10% of everything you own comes from the OT. Heck even today you have it based on mandatory payments in many places around the world.


Same was said for Kabala and many other places. Heck, have you read what Jesus said about giving away everything you own?

It's not an issue of the religion, it's an issue of what suckers you pluck in.

The difference is that the people who go into scientology are simply more willing to pay. That's about it. They weren't raised into the religion for the most part, these are people that were recurited and therefore (in my completely unevidenced opinion) more vulnerable to giving away their hard earned money.

Not exactly. You don't have to spend thousands of dollars a year to learn the inner secrets of catholicism, they only ask you to pay 10%. Scientology will push you to keep taking very expensive classes to learn more about the church.

Scientology will also claim to not be a religion when that is advantageous to them.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk

 

[DC]

Not exactly. You don't have to spend thousands of dollars a year to learn the inner secrets of catholicism, they only ask you to pay 10%. Scientology will push you to keep taking very expensive classes to learn more about the church.

Scientology will also claim to not be a religion when that is advantageous to them.

the inner secrets of catholicism?
got to have spend your live for the Catholic church to get close to those.

ETA: and turn of the commercials pls.

Sent from my Intel inside Computer using Mozilla Firefox, but who gives a crap?

 

[Ron_Tomkins]

Banning a Religion, not only achieves nothing, but additionally it taints the view that people can gain of skeptics, scientists and critical thinkers in general.

But here there is often the claim that they actually are not a religion.
and i once asked one of those scientology guys that was trying to trick people into his cult.
he sayd it doesn't matter what you believe aslong you do belief there is something higher than humans, or something like that.
i also went with one of their ladies to do that little test they have, and they wanted to sell me their book and it never was about religion.

This one's not even a religion, it's both a sect and a scheme to steal money from people.

That doesn't change the fact that we are talking about banning some individual group's right to believe in imaginary nonsense and spend their money at it. Whether you wanna argue taxonomic terms on whether or not it qualifies as a religion, it is irrelevant. As usual, humans waste time argue definitions as if changing the definition of something, automatically changed the thing in question.

We can try to explain to people they are wasting their money, but if in the end, they simply want to keep spending all their cash on it, banning their little private entertainment isn't the solution. The real education cannot be forced. It has to come from within.

 

[ponderingturtle]

That doesn't change the fact that we are talking about banning some individual group's right to believe in imaginary nonsense and spend their money at it. Whether you wanna argue taxonomic terms on whether or not it qualifies as a religion, it is irrelevant. As usual, humans waste time argue definitions as if changing the definition of something, automatically changed the thing in question.

We can try to explain to people they are wasting their money, but if in the end, they simply want to keep spending all their cash on it, banning their little private entertainment isn't the solution. The real education cannot be forced. It has to come from within.

Here it just changes their tax status. So that is a significant change.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk

 

[DC]

That doesn't change the fact that we are talking about banning some individual group's right to believe in imaginary nonsense and spend their money at it. Whether you wanna argue taxonomic terms on whether or not it qualifies as a religion, it is irrelevant. As usual, humans waste time argue definitions as if changing the definition of something, automatically changed the thing in question.

We can try to explain to people they are wasting their money, but if in the end, they simply want to keep spending all their cash on it, banning their little private entertainment isn't the solution. The real education cannot be forced. It has to come from within.

you got a point.

 

[xjx388]

Scientology is no more or less silly than any other religion. All religions essentially bilk their followers out of money based on nonsense. So it's just a question of scale. There are about 100,000 Scientologists, give or take? They need to collect more from each follower. There are 10s of millions of Catholics? They can afford to take a little less.

So the scale of the scam should not be a determining factor of what makes something a religion or what should be banned. As long as we have religious freedom (and we always should), then all religions should be on equal footing in the eye of the law.

The argument I would make against Scientology is that it is not a religion because it makes no claims about God. It purports to be actual, provable science. The religion angle was a way to get out of being scientifically scrutinized. But even this argument is weak - Christians say the existence of God is a fact that transcends science; what's the difference with Scientology?

At some point we just have to let fools believe what they want to . . .

 

[Rasmus]

I'd be all in favor of removing the tax-exempt status or other special treatments from all religions.

Those branches of each church that do actual charitable work should be allowed to enjoy the tax benefits that come with that - just like any other entity would be.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

i think you have a point, even when it was a Godwin.

I disagree that Godwin's Law has any applicability here.

Nobody is comparing anyone who had nothing to do with Naziism to the Nazis.

Germany is the nation that gave us Naziism, and in spite of their subsequent efforts to distance themselves from this shameful aspect of their past, every so often, they seem not to be able to help falling into some of the same sort of shameful policies that were associated with Naziism.

Suppressing an unpopular religion is exactly such a policy.