Scientology: A History of Violence with CNN’s Anderson Cooper 360 °

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Come on Fred, show us a Clear. You know, someone who has had all their nasty engrams removed and thus has the abilities of a superman as claimed by LRon in his work of fiction, Dianetics: The Ravings of a Lunatic.

 

[!Kaggen]

Not sure I follow. The "scam of the modern world," without any context or explanation, is a meaningless phrase.

You are right it I was not very clear.

What I meant was that Scientology is just another movement like many others of the modern world which could be described using your words as an "amazing achievement, in its innovations, scope and durability."

Whereas the question that keeps cropping up is, as you put it "how durable is it?"

 

[fredcarr]

So what drew you to Scientology in the first place?

Good question. One I love to answer. (I think I answered this in another thread but I'll add a bit more to the general idea I expressed earlier.)

In sixth grade I was interested in question like who I really was, why wasn't I someone else, was there a god, could there be more than one god and a whole bunch of other questions. Seemed like for every thing learned in grade school I would come up with a hundred more questions that seemed to have no answer. Indeed that was a question in and of itself: Are there answers to any and all questions?

So as my Sunday school teacher hadn't been too happy with the questions I was asking I started reading lots and lots of books. Everything from the entire bible to yoga. (An a-z of different subjects.) Wouldn't you know it my grandmother had books on everything esoteric like astrology. Soon gave up on that as it didn't really answer my questions with practical solutions I could use. I just couldn't see how the position of the stars affected my day to day life in grade school but it sure seemed interesting for a short while.

Anyhoo...trying to condense a couple years of in a couple paragraphs here. I finally ran a across some books by Mr. Hubbard and even a few about him (some nice and some not so nice). Some of what I read seemed pretty far out I gotta admit but some of it I could use to explain things I was seeing in my day to day life. And helped to explain why some people acted the way the did. (Reminds me of a conversation I had with a psychology student when I was 11. He was quite nice to tolerate a kid discussing things with him that he had been studying for years. Cracks me up to think about that.)

During all this time I was fairly worried I might be going to hell for following false prophets and all that!

Eventually, it became clear to me that here were answers that were usable and I could find out if they were workable or not and I didn't have to wait for the hereafter. A "practical religion" if you will.

That was almost 35 years ago.

 

[Sledge]

What usable or practical answers did you find and to which questions?

 

[fredcarr]

Fredcarr, Ive just got to ask about these fundamentals. What difference does whatever the fundamentals or tenets of your religion say make if the bottom line of the whole kaboodle is space aliens?

Simple question: Do you believe in the space alien story? That's pretty much what non-believers want to know from believers. Not books and readings and long discussions. The main issue is- nobody actually defends the space alien story. Would you, if you had the time and inclination? Not will you right now, but do you believe it in your heart. Yes or no?

I've answered this question at length in other threads unless my memory fails me.

What I believe is no one else's business. If someone wants to know about what the tenets are of Scientology then there are several excellent sources to be had on the subject. (This is not even getting into the whole "belief" issue which I have discussed ad-nauseam in earlier threads.) Not to mention what I believe may not be representative of what other Scientologist's believe in all cases.

The fundamentals, by definition, are the bottom line.

Trust me when I say there are lots of wild and seemingly crazy things Mr. Hubbard discusses in the materials I have described as being "fundamental."

I don't however discuss scriptures that are not published by the church.

 

[fredcarr]

What usable or practical answers did you find and to which questions?

O jeez another great question. One which you will have to excuse me for not answering in a forum such as this.

Scientology: A New Slant on Life or Problems of Work: Scientology Applied to the Workaday World are both good books to get some answers to that question. There are others as well. Depends on the question I guess.

 

[Aoidoi]

fredcarr - thanks for the insight. Even though I don't generally agree with you, you present your point of view well. Are you planning on watching the Anderson Cooper series? I'd be interested in your response to it.

If I may ask, what do you do on a day to day basis as a Scientologist? Is it a "show up on Sunday" type thing, or a philosophical thing, or are you practicing on a daily basis? The things I've read have focused mostly on the people who were living it 24/7 (living/working at Scientology centers, etc.), and I'm wondering if that's the typical situation these days, or if it's possible to be a "casual" Scientologist.

 

[Sledge]

Unless you wrote those books, I really can't see how they'd answer my question.

 

[Matty1973]

I've answered this question at length in other threads unless my memory fails me.

Does anyone know the answer to the question of whether fredcarr believes in the Aliens part of Scientology? Otherwise we are left to go through over 500 posts to find the answer - I suppose that is similar to going through 2000 lectures he advised if we want to understand what Scientology is about - is this a standard Scientology method of deflecting the question?

 

[quarky]

Kudos to fredcarr for guts and a reasonable attitude.

 

[Region Rat]

I've answered this question at length in other threads unless my memory fails me.

What I believe is no one else's business. If someone wants to know about what the tenets are of Scientology then there are several excellent sources to be had on the subject. (This is not even getting into the whole "belief" issue which I have discussed ad-nauseam in earlier threads.) Not to mention what I believe may not be representative of what other Scientologist's believe in all cases.

The fundamentals, by definition, are the bottom line.

Trust me when I say there are lots of wild and seemingly crazy things Mr. Hubbard discusses in the materials I have described as being "fundamental."

I don't however discuss scriptures that are not published by the church.

You're right, it's none of my business. I just thought that since you came to a public forum to discuss your religion that you might be willing to answer the basic question most people would want to know.

I'm not so sure about the fundamentals being the bottom line, though. Can a person call himself a christian because he say's he lives by the fundamentals in the bible, but firmly believes there is no such thing as a god? Or, I'm a Hindu, but I don't believe in Vishnu or Ganesh?

I just figured you did believe in the space alien story and are afraid of ridicule, you don't believe in the space alien part, but found some solace in the other teachings (whatever they are), or you hadn't proceeded far enough along the path for you to supposed to even know about the space alien part.

Sorry, didn't mean to delve.

 

[fredcarr]

fredcarr - thanks for the insight. Even though I don't generally agree with you, you present your point of view well. Are you planning on watching the Anderson Cooper series? I'd be interested in your response to it.

If I may ask, what do you do on a day to day basis as a Scientologist? Is it a "show up on Sunday" type thing, or a philosophical thing, or are you practicing on a daily basis? The things I've read have focused mostly on the people who were living it 24/7 (living/working at Scientology centers, etc.), and I'm wondering if that's the typical situation these days, or if it's possible to be a "casual" Scientologist.

Thanks.

Day to day equals work and family mostly. Two boys that bounce of the walls is enough to take up most of your time. I try to fit my hobbies in when I can. For example I love card tricks and spend those spare moments practicing different sleights and routines.

I have been on staff at a church in the past but I'm a "public" Scientologist currently. I try to study my scriptures on a daily basis but it's very hard with the current work and family scene. (Economy and all that.) I usually go in on a Sunday to my local church but there have been times when I have studied or worked on something fulltime as well.

Once in a while someone I helped with some problem or another sends someone else to me and then I'll put aside a lot of my day to day stuff to lend a hand but this depends on time and resources and all that.

I'll probably watch the series if it gets put on the net. (late nights are family time) If its the same stuff that has been going around for the last ten months then I may not worry too much about it.

Back to the day to day question: So normally its not a Sunday thing but the last two years it has been. Funny to look at it in that way. To me its both a philosophical way of understanding life and the day to day activies as well as there are actions I sometimes take which are based on things I have learned as a Scientologist.

A rather mundane example of the this is simply not interuppting when someone is speaking (not as common sense as one might think) and always letting them know I heard and understood what they said (if indeed I did hear and understand it). Mr. Hubbard has a lot of work on the subject of communication, how it affects all facets of life, how it gets broken and how to repair it. This may indeed be one of the most used things in my day to day life as it affects so many areas. This is a practical aspect as well as a philosophical point. (But there again I could go on for a very long time on this and its much easier to tell someone to read a book.)

 

[fredcarr]

I'm not so sure about the fundamentals being the bottom line, though. Can a person call himself a christian because he say's he lives by the fundamentals in the bible, but firmly believes there is no such thing as a god? Or, I'm a Hindu, but I don't believe in Vishnu or Ganesh?

Good point. But if the fundamentals do cover the basics of the religion then I'm not sure what the issue is.

 

[sadhatter]

This may be interesting to someone trying to understand what the heck is going on in Scientology circles.



from

http://uncletaz.com/hubbstein.html

Why does all scientology crap sound like it was plucked right out of a dungeons and dragons book? I mean seriously, that speil sounds like a prestige class from d and d.

 

[fredcarr]

Why does all scientology crap sound like it was plucked right out of a dungeons and dragons book? I mean seriously, that speil sounds like a prestige class from d and d.

Couple points:

1. I didn't read that entire article. Too long for work.
2. I did scroll down at random and picked out a sentence that caught my eye, "Scientology does not appear to leave much room for love, empathy, compassion, or genuine affection,...".

Obviously the writer either had absolutely no familiarity with the basic principles of Scientology or he is lying. This one line is a 180% opposite statement of what Mr. Hubbard does say on the subject. A prime example of why bother to explain to someone who's only source is an article like this. Read a book and find out what Mr. Hubbard does say.

 

[Calculon]

Fred....
The story that CNN will do is not about the tenets of Scientology per se....but the abuses of Scientology and leaders in it such as David Miscavige.


Although for me, I think Scientology as envisaged by L Ron Hubbard will ALWAYS be abusive, (Fairgame, the Sea Org, disconnection, etc were put in place by Hubbard, not underlings after he left his body to go to Target Two)

So discussing your beliefs and such are somewhat derailing. CNN won't be discussing if thetans or engrams or Xenu are fake or not.
What is your take on the stories put out by people who have left recently?
If you have not seen what I am referring to, here are some links:

http://www.tampabay.com/specials/2009/reports/project/
A three part series including recorded interviews with high level exes and Tommy Davis.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/07/us/07scientology.html
A story on Sunday March 6, 2010, front page above the fold. This was reprinted all over the world.

Here are videos of a press conference that took place in Hollywood on Feb 12, 2010
http://www.xenutv.com/blog/?p=4317&cpage=1
The speakers were ex-SO (Sea Org) who have all suffered being in Scientology.
Here is the press pack given out.
http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/5822585-anonlover


I am happy you are here. I hope for many discussions in the future.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Sniff.

I see I'm still on Fred's Ignore List.

If anyone wants to learn about Scientology, I suggest that they do read Dianetics (quick before the "church" buys up all copies and rewrites it). Compare to Reality. Ask Fred to show us a Clear.

 

[Calculon]

I wanted to edit the OP to add this better link, but too late.

Here is the thread from CNN about the upcoming series before it runs:
Scientology: A history of violence

 

[Disclord]

Sniff.

I see I'm still on Fred's Ignore List.

If anyone wants to learn about Scientology, I suggest that they do read Dianetics (quick before the "church" buys up all copies and rewrites it). Compare to Reality. Ask Fred to show us a Clear.

I had such a hard time getting through the book Dianetics. The attempted coat-hangar abortions and abuse of momma by poppa ("You take that!" making a fetus into a future kleptomaniac) along with the claims that it was all SCIENTIFIC FACT would leave me giggling. It was so crazy. And neither L. Ron or the Church have ever produced the reams of scientifical research they've claimed they did.

Didn't L. Ron introduce a "Clear" to the world once, claim she now had perfect recall, and she couldn't even 'recall' the color of tie he was wearing when she wasn't looking at him?

You have to really be willing to completely overlook the truth about L. Ron, and stuff like "Operation P.C. Freak Out" to take any of it seriously. You don't even have to try to make fun of L. Ron, Dianetics or Scientology, because the bizarreness of it all does it for you.

 

[fredcarr]

Fred....
The story that CNN will do is not about the tenets of Scientology per se....but the abuses of Scientology and leaders in it such as David Miscavige.


Although for me, I think Scientology as envisaged by L Ron Hubbard will ALWAYS be abusive, (Fairgame, the Sea Org, disconnection, etc were put in place by Hubbard, not underlings after he left his body to go to Target Two)

So discussing your beliefs and such are somewhat derailing. CNN won't be discussing if thetans or engrams or Xenu are fake or not.
What is your take on the stories put out by people who have left recently?
If you have not seen what I am referring to, here are some links:

http://www.tampabay.com/specials/2009/reports/project/
A three part series including recorded interviews with high level exes and Tommy Davis.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/07/us/07scientology.html
A story on Sunday March 6, 2010, front page above the fold. This was reprinted all over the world.

Here are videos of a press conference that took place in Hollywood on Feb 12, 2010
http://www.xenutv.com/blog/?p=4317&cpage=1
The speakers were ex-SO (Sea Org) who have all suffered being in Scientology.
Here is the press pack given out.
http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/5822585-anonlover


I am happy you are here. I hope for many discussions in the future.

I haven't seen Mr. Miscavige beat anyone up. My one thought on the matter is how will he prove that he hasn't if indeed he hasn't?

Can't think how I would prove that I'm not abusive to my wife. (Not as far fetched a scenario as one might believe.) A neighbor tried to start a rumor that I was abusive toward my wife a year or so ago. This was after I had to take quick and drastic actions to prevent something tragic happening.

One was when he was using a chain saw to saw up some old railroad ties. It was dangerous because there was a number of young kids running around underfoot while he was running a chain saw. I was rather direct in getting the kids and other people away from the area as quickly as I could.

The other was when some guys were raising an old telephone pole (about 1/4 the size) without any safety equipment in place. Except a clothes line. Again kids were running all over the place. If the pole had fallen over it could have killed someone. The moms were chatting among themselves obvlious to the danger inherent in what was happening. After asking several times that they get the kids to safe area I had to put some juice into my communication.

After that I was the abusive dad because I hollered. (At least according to the idiot that was putting other peoples lives in danger.) So how do I prove that I am not "abusive?" I have no idea. Heck maybe I am!

I've read and seen most of the material you link to. My experiences have been different for the most part. I have seen the things Mr. Miscavige has done for my church and for me personally. He has my utmost respect. Traitors don'. That's all that I care to say on that issue.