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Scientific research into ghosts?

Azrael 5

Philosopher
Azrael 5
Joined
Sep 19, 2003
Messages
6,106
Discussing ghosts on another forum and this question was asked,I don't know.Has there ever been any?
 
There sure has been. Like just recently on the Discovery Channel I saw Richard Wiseman investigating ghosts that were sighted in an underground city, I believe underneath Liverpool. Although most investigations seem to be believers who measure everything they can and then attribute any change in any measured value (humidity, temperature etc) to ghosts. It looks scientific, but it really isn't.
 
Thanks Drummer,but I was thinking more like a proper investigation,researched etc.Quite what equipment you use to check for ghosts I have no idea!
 
Since there isn't any scientific instrument to 'measure' ghosts, the approach I'd try would be similar to what's used in medicine for certain diseases: diagnosis by exclusion. If you can rule out natural explanations you're left with only one option. Then again, ruling out *all* natural explanations isn't easy.
 
Azrael 5 said:
Thanks Drummer,but I was thinking more like a proper investigation,researched etc.Quite what equipment you use to check for ghosts I have no idea!
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There is currently NO equipment that is designed to find a "Ghost". Before you can create a device to do as such, you need to know what a "ghost" or "spirit" is made of...unfortunately no groups have attempted to do this...at least not yet.

Most groups will use equipment, such as an EMF reader, to detect changes in the rooms "energy levels". EMF is everywhere, and everything gives off this energy, this is completely natural. The EMF detector is used to pick up spikes in the energy during investigations. It is beleived that a spirit or ghost, is purely energy. Therefore reading an energy spike could help with the research. Standard procedure would be to do a base reading throughout the investigation site, recording a base reading for future analysis (a mistake most groups forget to do). During the investigations, you then run through once again, with your EMF reader, recording again, all the readings you get throughout the room. Many groups dont understand that spikes dont necessarily mean something supernatural is occuring. However, there are instances where Energy Levels are spiked and you can literally follow this increase. Is it supernatural? Possibly, however it is not normal. Proper procedure for doing an EMF reading would be to layout a grid of the entire investigation site, then record the data in each grid at various times throughout the investigation. One night of recording would not suffice. Do this same process for the next week...see how your data correlates with each other. Do the spikes happen around the same time? If so, are they in the same location? A yes or no answer does not necessarily mean something supernatural, but a yes answer should send you back to try and find natural solutions.

Just my comment on the thread.
 
It is beleived that a spirit or ghost, is purely energy. Therefore reading an energy spike could help with the research.
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To paraphrase Grimoire, what scientific principles is this theory based on? What predictions does this theory make, and how accurate do the observations match the theory?

PS, you abandoned your other thread?
 
CLD said:
To paraphrase Grimoire, what scientific principles is this theory based on? What predictions does this theory make, and how accurate do the observations match the theory?

PS, you abandoned your other thread?
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The scientific Principles woud be the Conservation of Energy. It is stated that
"the total amount of energy in an isolated system remains constant. In other words, energy can be converted from one form to another, but it cannot be created or destroyed. In modern physics, all forms of energy exhibit mass and all mass is a form of energy".
If we use this basic principle in the theory that spirits are a form of energy simply because they would be a form of mass, then measuring this energy would be sufficient with the use of modern technology, such as EMF readers (as basic and inconlcusive as they may be).

This scientific principle may also help us understand why spirits and ghost exist. If energy cannot be created or destroyed, perhaps this would be a legitimate theory that our bodies energy remains constant, thus remaining after death.

The equipment that we are currently using is still leaving many loopholes and open questions. For example, what type of energy is the spirit made of? How is it converted and why?

Also, I have not abandoned my previous thread...I just wanted to comment in this one as well. Unfortunately I dont have all the time in the world. Perhaps one day.
 
Well the sticks and stones and name calling has started in earnest on other forum,so I fear any reserach links would be wasted.But thanks guys.
 
ParaInvestigator06 said:
The scientific Principles woud be the Conservation of Energy. It is stated that
"the total amount of energy in an isolated system remains constant. In other words, energy can be converted from one form to another, but it cannot be created or destroyed. In modern physics, all forms of energy exhibit mass and all mass is a form of energy".
If we use this basic principle in the theory that spirits are a form of energy simply because they would be a form of mass, then measuring this energy would be sufficient with the use of modern technology, such as EMF readers (as basic and inconlcusive as they may be).
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How does your last sentence follow from the quoted paragraph?

Your statement seems to be entirely seperate, merely assuming that if spirits can be measured by an EMF detector than they can be measured by an EMF detector.

I really don't see any scientific content beyond that. No reason is provided to assume that
a) Spirits exist
b) They have mass
c) They emit EMF
 
I own all the pieces of ghosthunting equipment. According to them, my computer is haunted. It gives off strange temperature readings, spikes in EMF, and makes sounds that can be interpreted as human voices.

Yours might, too. Try asking it a question. ;)
 
ParaInvestigator06 said:
The scientific Principles woud be the Conservation of Energy. It is stated that
"the total amount of energy in an isolated system remains constant. In other words, energy can be converted from one form to another, but it cannot be created or destroyed. In modern physics, all forms of energy exhibit mass and all mass is a form of energy".
If we use this basic principle in the theory that spirits are a form of energy simply because they would be a form of mass, then measuring this energy would be sufficient with the use of modern technology, such as EMF readers (as basic and inconlcusive as they may be).
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I asked this in your previous thread and did not receive an answer: How do you isolate your ghost from mundane sources? If you can't, then you can't use an EMF reader as evidence for ghosts. At best, you can use an EMF reader as evidence for EMF. Nothing more.

ParaInvestigator06 said:
This scientific principle may also help us understand why spirits and ghost exist. If energy cannot be created or destroyed, perhaps this would be a legitimate theory that our bodies energy remains constant, thus remaining after death.
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While energy can not be created or destroyed, it can be transformed. Our bodies are constantly transforming the chemical energy in food into electrical energy that is used in our brain (yeah, gross simplification, but essentially true). Upon death, this transformation stops. In order for your theory that some sort of energy continues, it would in fact require a violation of the conservation of energy.

ParaInvestigator06 said:
The equipment that we are currently using is still leaving many loopholes and open questions. For example, what type of energy is the spirit made of? How is it converted and why?
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Excellent questions. Until those questions have reasonable answers, there really isn't any point in using ANY equipment. You need a scientific based theory on what a ghost is, and then you make a prediction about the effects they will produce. Then you create equipment to detect those effects. If you do find those effects, you have validated your theory.

Unfortunately, every paranormal investigator I've read about has always done things in the reverse order. They take an effect, measure it, and then figure out how to match it to their particular theory. That isn't science.

ParaInvestigator06 said:
Also, I have not abandoned my previous thread...I just wanted to comment in this one as well. Unfortunately I dont have all the time in the world. Perhaps one day.
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If you have the time to start a new thread, then I suggest that you should have spent the time answering questions in an existing thread first. It is only a suggestion however...People spent time reading and responding to your thread, and it is only polite to read and respond to them.

I appreciate that you have attempted to address some of the questions people have asked, and I hope you continue to do so in the future.

Thanks!
 
You need a scientific based theory on what a ghost is, and then you make a prediction about the effects they will produce. Then you create equipment to detect those effects. If you do find those effects, you have validated your theory.

Unfortunately, every paranormal investigator I've read about has always done things in the reverse order. They take an effect, measure it, and then figure out how to match it to their particular theory. That isn't science.
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Well said, Grimoire.

Para, this is usually the point in the discussion where most paranormal believers and ghost hunters short-circuit ("what?...our video and measurements are...useless?") and run off, blaming us for being close-minded. I applaud you for hanging in, and I hope people resist the urge to make fun of your thread(s). I'm really interested in hearing more from you.
 
Just to restate in agreement with numerous posters here...

A definition of the physical characteristics of a ghost is needed,
before one can go off looking for ghosts.

Ghosthunters should just follow the normal scientific process,
or else provide lame excuses for not.
 
CLD said:
Well said, Grimoire.

Para, this is usually the point in the discussion where most paranormal believers and ghost hunters short-circuit ("what?...our video and measurements are...useless?") and run off, blaming us for being close-minded. I applaud you for hanging in, and I hope people resist the urge to make fun of your thread(s). I'm really interested in hearing more from you.
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The fact is, that I remain skeptical about much of the paranormal. I suppose my interest is due to personal experience, much of which I question its validity and whether or not I may have imagined the things I have had happened to me.

As you have said, most paranormal believers and ghost hunters would flip out, mainly because you are defying their belief system. Many probably came here to argue their "Point" and when they received a large number of backlashes, out of frustration they leave. I get the same thing when I argue in the same fashion. Paranormal Believers can be JUST as CLOSE MINDED as Skeptics...trust me, I know.
 
ParaInvestigator06 said:
Paranormal Believers can be JUST as CLOSE MINDED as Skeptics...trust me, I know.
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Ah, a common error. True skeptics are NOT close minded. In fact, they are completely open minded. Close minded means that they are not open to changing their mind. A skeptic will change his mind, as long as the evidence demands that they do so. When that happens, we change our minds with glee.

The problem is that what many believers consider evidence (or even proof) isn't. In fact, most believers, as you have pointed out, are closed minded. You can't change their minds, regardless of the quantity and quality of the evidence.

Should you, or anyone else, present strong, well founded evidence for anything, supernatural or otherwise, I will happily agree. That is what being open minded is all about.
 
Grimoire said:
Ah, a common error. True skeptics are NOT close minded. In fact, they are completely open minded. Close minded means that they are not open to changing their mind. A skeptic will change his mind, as long as the evidence demands that they do so. When that happens, we change our minds with glee.

The problem is that what many believers consider evidence (or even proof) isn't. In fact, most believers, as you have pointed out, are closed minded. You can't change their minds, regardless of the quantity and quality of the evidence.

Should you, or anyone else, present strong, well founded evidence for anything, supernatural or otherwise, I will happily agree. That is what being open minded is all about.
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Hear Hear!. Show me a (real) ghost and I will become a paying member of the club.
 
Oh, one more thing about being open minded. What most believers consider being open minded, the dictionary considers to be gullibledict.
 
Grimoire said:
Ah, a common error. True skeptics are NOT close minded.
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True skeptics, like true scotsmen, don't actually exist. Self-identified skeptics, such as those that post on internet forums, are just as resistant to ideas that contradict their currently held beliefs as any other group of believers on any other subject.
 
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