Scientific Facts in the Koran

[DC]

a friend of mine. a really nice guy, countered to my Atheism that all those Scientific Facts i talk about are actually described in the Koran.

So i took a look at it, and indeed with extremly much interpretation and ignoring other nonsence in the book, one can indeed belive they talk about the science we know today.

for him this is pure evidence that God wrote it, and not humans, as there was no way they had that knowledge back then.

I see that a little bit diffrent, i think, its like with Nostradamus, after the fact its pretty easy to interpret everything vague written into something that confirms the fact.

in short its a pile of rubish.

but how do i explain that in a non offensive way to him?

 

[Cainkane1]

I'd think about it first. Do you really think you can deconvert a muslim? Would the attempt compromise your friendship? Would he get violent if you suggested the Qu'ran was garbage?

 

[H3LL]

for him this is pure evidence that God wrote it, and not humans, as there was no way they had that knowledge back then.

Yes, he's right.
Back then humans were incapable of looking at things, observing what actually happens and taking notes and measurements. Maybe he suffers from this ancient, medieval malady.


If your friend accepts that the above is obviously nonsense then an alternative to his view is that people did science - No gods required.

Also, there was plenty of good science and technology around way, way before the Q'ran or even other Abrahamic scriptures. Heaven forbid that the human writers, living in the world's centre for science, might have cribbed some stuff. Much more likely that Goddidit....Not!

If the Q'ran had been written at a time when humankind had no science or technology and was shivering in a fireless cave, devoid of weapons while scavenging for carrion, roots and berries, his argument might have some substance. It wasn't and it doesn't.


The Muslim world has contributed an enormous amount to science, for which they should be rightfully very proud.

Unfortunately, among other things, religious orthodoxy and fundamentalism was also a massive factor in halting advance and complicit in the eventual stagnation, for which they should be rightfully very ashamed.

You might find this an interesting read of a summary of medieval Muslim science (and it does mention possible Q'ran connections for why that is perhaps so). There is a lot of fascinating stuff to follow up on, if you wish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_in_medieval_Islam

When all said and done, none of the above in any way indicates that the Q'ran was written by any god unless you accept, without any evidence, an illiterate, pugilistic paedophile as a legitimate and reliable source for such an idea.

.

 

[DC]

I'd think about it first. Do you really think you can deconvert a muslim? Would the attempt compromise your friendship? Would he get violent if you suggested the Qu'ran was garbage?

no way, its not abou deconverting or even convincing or anything.
and he is one of those moslems that does belive the koran does not alow him violence, even against infidels.
and i dont want to loose the friendship. Thats why i ask. But if he asks me about it, if i looked at it, i will not lie just to make him happy.

 

[DC]

Yes, he's right. Back then humans were incapable of looking at things, observing what actually happens and taking notes and measurements. Maybe he suffers from this ancient, medieval malady.


But seriously, the Muslim world has contributed an enormous amount to science, for which they should be rightfully very proud.

Unfortunately, among other things, religious orthodoxy and fundamentalism was also a massive factor in halting advance and eventual stagnation, for which they should be rightfully very ashamed.

You might find this an interesting read of a summary of medieval Muslim science. There is a lot of interesting stuff to follow up on, if you wish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_in_medieval_Islam

When all said and done, none of the above in any way indicates that the Q'ran was written by any god unless you accept, without any evidence, an illiterate, pugilistic paedophile as a legitimate and reliable source for such an idea.

.

Oh he knows that about the middle east in ancient times very well.
But the desciptions in the Koran, AFTER interpretation are indeed beyond what the knew back then i think. Big bang and the formation of the suns and planets etc.

but AFTER interpretation, while the koran talks about Dust or something in this direction, it suddenly comes to the belivers, hot gasses and such

 

[Eddie Dane]

I had the same dilemma with a Muslim friend.

I never challenged him about the science thing, even though I thought it was BS.

His trump card at the time was that the atom is (sorta) described in the Koran.

But whaddayaknow, I later got into Greek philosophy and found that the theory of the atom actually originates with Democritus. That is, the theory of the atom comes from a Greek atheist who lived some 980 years before the Koran was written.

Also he actually coined the term A-tom and not some crappy poetic term like "dust particle" like the koran does.

ETA: and why did Pakistan have to steal nuclear secrets from the Netherlands to build that frigging bomb? Couldn't they just look it up in the Koran?
Same with Iran. Still struggling to build nuclear devices with Russian help. We were building that stuff when the Everly Brothers were in the charts.

 

[DC]

I had the same dilemma with a Muslim friend.

I never challenged him about the science thing, even though I thought it was BS.

His trump card at the time was that the atom is (sorta) described in the Koran.

But whaddayaknow, I later got into Greek philosophy and found that the theory of the atom actually originates with Democritus. That is, the theory of the atom comes from a Greek atheist who lived some 980 years before the Koran was written.

Also he actually coined the term A-tom and not some crappy poetic term like "dust particle" like the koran does.

ah, that is very helpfull, thanks.

 

[Marduk]

The Koran states quite clearly that the sun revolves around the earth as the moon revolves around the earth

Abraham - p.101 - “He has created rivers for your benefit, and the sun and the moon, which steadfastly pursue their courses....”
Thunder - p.140 - “Allah...forced the sun and the moon into His service, each pursuing an appointed course....”
Ya Sin - p.172 #1 - “The sun hastens to its resting place: its course is laid for it by the Mighty One, the All-knowing.”
Ya Sin - p.172 #2 - “The sun is not allowed to overtake the moon.... Each in its own orbit runs.”
The Creator - p.176 - “He has forced the sun and the moon into His service, each running for an appointed term.”
Luqman - p.187 - “He has forced the sun and the moon into His service, each running for an appointed term.” (Same as written in The Creator, p.176.)
The Hordes - p.273 - “He made the sun and the moon obedient to Him, each running for an appointed term.”
The Prophets - p.292 - “It was He who created the night and the day, the sun and the moon: each moves swiftly in an orbit of its own.”
The Cow - p.352 - “Allah brings the sun up from the east....”
The Cessation - (implied) p.17 - “I swear by the turning planets and by the stars that rise and set.”

perhaps you should tell your friend that if hes got a dictionary he should use it by looking up Astronomy and seeing what it is

 

[DC]

mmhh first he had to create them and later force them into his service.

like i said, you gotta ignore alot other nonsense in the book to belive it to be scientific

i just look for a nice way to tell him he belives nonsense

 

[H3LL]

Sorry DC - Did a bit of editing while you wrote.

I see your friend is making claims after the scientific fact has been discovered on less mundane scientific topics.

Ask him why it was that, a supposedly very clear book (54:40, 54:17, 54:32), has been studied in detail by many intelligent scholars who completely failed to come up with any of the scientific theories from reading it until after the human discovery of them?

As Marduk suggested, if the "science" in the Q'ran is derived from the mind of God, why so many horrendous errors? Water did not exist before the universe was created and the Moon is not above the stars.

i just look for a nice way to tell him he belives nonsense

Here's a nice religious way, perhaps.

If your friend is suggesting that science proves the divinity of the Q'ran this quote may be the clincher:

It is impossible to argue a position in isolation. There are always consequences, implications of the position you choose to hold or preach. And this is true of the "modern science proves the Qur’an" argument.

For many Muslims it sounds very nice and neat in theory, and if it were true it would indeed be a proof of the Qur’an.

However, for a Muslim who chooses to use the polemic, the logical consequences are dire; it is restrictive, it demotes God, it sets up science as a higher standard than the Qur’an, it doesn’t prove anything at the end of the day, and above all, it removes the Qur’an’s authority over anything. As a polemic it is both weak and dangerous, and as such I believe best avoided by Muslims.

Source.

Big oops.



ETA: That probably works for Xians using the same argument too.
.

 

[Beerina]

a friend of mine. a really nice guy, countered to my Atheism that all those Scientific Facts i talk about are actually described in the Koran.

So i took a look at it, and indeed with extremly much interpretation and ignoring other nonsence in the book, one can indeed belive they talk about the science we know today.

for him this is pure evidence that God wrote it, and not humans, as there was no way they had that knowledge back then.

I see that a little bit diffrent, i think, its like with Nostradamus, after the fact its pretty easy to interpret everything vague written into something that confirms the fact.

in short its a pile of rubish.

but how do i explain that in a non offensive way to him?

"Bible Coders" used various mathematical ways to pluck out letters from the Bible to "prove" encoded messages. One said he'd believe it was false if one could demonstrate you could pluck the same kind of crap from Moby Dick, which was done.

Obviously there is nothing to Bible Codes.


Similarly, one could pull the same kind of predictions your friend makes from other large bodies of literature that are known to be fiction.

Important: This would not demonstrate the Koran is fiction. But it would demonstrate his logic that the Koran predicts science truth to be incorrect as an argument. In other words, any book, Holy Word of God or otherwise, can be used with his logic to "prove" the book demonstrates science that could not have possibly been known at the time.


To do this, you'd have to find old, known fiction, and show how they accurately represent some scientific aspect that couldn't possibly have been known back then. I don't know if people have done this, but I submit it could be done, and easily*.




* easily adj tortuously. He easily showed why The Bible doesn't actually want you to kill witches or gays.

 

[DC]

it was a fruitless discusion
he knows they are scientific facts.
we just dont understand it properly

 

[Eddie Dane]

it was a fruitless discusion
he knows they are scientific facts.
we just dont understand it properly

Thanks for reporting back.

Is he still talking to you?

 

[DC]

Thanks for reporting back.

Is he still talking to you?

oh yes he is everything fine.
we just disagree on it.

 

[Undesired Walrus]

The Quran frequently says that mountains stop the Earth from shaking. I'm not sure that is stellar science.

 

[DC]

he also told me, Allah created the world and the skies in only 7 days, i answered thats impossible, he then said, well 7 Allah days can be millions of years for humans.

i then directly asked him if he is a Creationist, if allah created everything like it is today, he said no, he belives in evolution. but Allah cause evolution.

aslong science cannot tell everything, there is still some place to put in fantasy creators

 

[funk de fino]

he also told me, Allah created the world and the skies in only 7 days, i answered thats impossible, he then said, well 7 Allah days can be millions of years for humans.

i then directly asked him if he is a Creationist, if allah created everything like it is today, he said no, he belives in evolution. but Allah cause evolution.

aslong science cannot tell everything, there is still some place to put in fantasy creators

As long as he is not trying to convert you then I would say there is no need to discuss religion with him. It will only end in tears.

 

[DC]

As long as he is not trying to convert you then I would say there is no need to discuss religion with him. It will only end in tears.

No he is not trying, we just like to debate about it he doesnt have a problem with it.

 

[Eddie Dane]

he also told me, Allah created the world and the skies in only 7 days, i answered thats impossible, he then said, well 7 Allah days can be millions of years for humans.

i then directly asked him if he is a Creationist, if allah created everything like it is today, he said no, he belives in evolution. but Allah cause evolution.

aslong science cannot tell everything, there is still some place to put in fantasy creators

Sounds like he has found a balance between religion and realism.
He may not be a fearless truth-seeker but he looks for the middle ground.

In my experience these are people an atheist can be friends with (if they one doesn't try to totally convert the other).

I don't hang with creationists and fundi's because that's like associating with adults that believe in Santa. And that just freaks me out.

Catholics also accept evolution and other scientific conclusions, but still like to believe that God made the Big Bang happen.

 

[DC]

Sounds like he has found a balance between religion and realism.
He may not be a fearless truth-seeker but he looks for the middle ground.

In my experience these are people an atheist can be friends with (if they one doesn't try to totally convert the other).

I don't hang with creationists and fundi's because that's like associating with adults that believe in Santa. And that just freaks me out.

Catholics also accept evolution and other scientific conclusions, but still like to believe that God made the Big Bang happen.

well sometimes its hard to not laugh when he talks about Allah and angels and such. But i like the guy, he is indeed somehow balanced.

Waht i like most is that he is geting totaly angry at terrorists, for him thats blasphemy, the only one allowed to kill i Allah, according to him.