Scientific explanation for Bermuda Triangle?

[homer]

Actually it should be the Bermuda Pentangle . Oerrr..

 

[VPescado]

I thought that cruise was in the Triangle for all of about an hour (when it leaves Ft. Lauderdale)?

But what a dangerous hour that will be.

And you forget that the ship will again pass through the triangle on our way back to Port Everglades - and by then we will have lost the element of surprise and the Triangle will be expecting us. <insert spooky theramin music here>

 

[Soapy Sam]

On the question of Columbus compass difficulties. Gilbert's discovery of the Earth's magnetic field was still over a century in the future.
The position of the magnetic pole was not known, but in Europe, magnetic deviation from true north was a matter of a few degrees. By the time Columbus was approaching the west Indies, that was no longer true. His compass was indeed unreliable compared to astronavigation. This had nothing to do with the area itself and everything to do with its position.

Hans- on the shallow gas business- I agree the threat to ships is small. The threat to a rig is far greater because of three factors-
1. The rig may actually release the gas during shallow drilling.
2. The rig is unable to move off location fast enough to escape a rising plume of gas.
3. Rigs are not, like ships, designed to roll. A sudden gas release under one pontoon of a floater can tilt the whole structure sharply. At this point, tubular goods (drillpipe / casing) start sliding and fluids (oil / water / drilling mud) start to slosh. The effect can be a sudden , positive feedback loop which flips the whole structure. (A rig with a derrick full of drillpipe has a far higher centre of gravity than any ship).

I have heard of one confirmed incident of the sort, in the S.China Seas in the seventies. Can't recall the details though. I'll ask around.

In addition, jackup rigs- where the legs are grounded on bottom- are vulnerable to gas release scouring the seabed around the ballast cans and undermining the structure. I have personal experience of this one. Deeply unamusing.

 

[krelnius]

ok then

Ok now thats not fair to brand me as the kind of person that can't accept fact and will only continue to kick back suggestions.

Forget all about Flight 19. Completely. IMO there isnt enough solid information to determine what happend to them or the 1 rescue ship that was thought to have exploded. With flight 19 and the USS Cyclops completely wiped from the record, my argument basically stands on whether or not the Bermuda Triangle area has a larger rate or incidents than other areas of water with similiar traffic.

Considering that Lloyds of London does not have higher insurance rates to the goods being taken through the area by air or sea is definitely a strong argument and is very convincing. But before I throw in the towel I'd just like to ask what is the most expensive area to insure goods to be transported through according to Lloyds of London? If this place which they consider to be the most costly to them is also an area with a higher incident rate than everywhere else then their rates make sense to me completely and I'll consider this case closed. If not then I'll consider their insurance to be similiar to the other insurance I've had encounters with in my life...mostly people ripping me off and making a fortune in the process.

I just don't think its fair to say that since Lloyds of London doesnt charge more for this areas insurance than others means its got a normal incident rate unless I can see the facts showing that they actually do charge more for the areas where there ARE more incident rates.

Also, I'm gonna laugh when u guys get attacked by freak waves, pirates, and drug runners. Not such an amazing meeting now huh you scallywags!?!! Arg.







Lloyds of London

 

[Nyarlathotep]

Forget all about Flight 19. Completely. IMO there isnt enough solid information to determine what happend to them or the 1 rescue ship that was thought to have exploded. With flight 19 and the USS Cyclops completely wiped from the record, my argument basically stands on whether or not the Bermuda Triangle area has a larger rate or incidents than other areas of water with similiar traffic.

How so? With nothing extraordinary happening to Flight 19 and no higher incidence of disappearances in the triangle than anywhere else, you have a stretch of water where ships and or planes occasionally vanish....just like every other stretch of water on the planet. Thus nothing extraordinary about and thus nothing requiring an explanation.

 

[UrsulaV]

I don't know enough about international shipping insurance to know where to go looking for specific rates, I fear, so I can't help you there. However, a few minutes with Google would indicate that Lloyd's of London maintains a "war risk list" which lists the most dangerous waters in the world, either because of violent conflict or high occurances of piracy. An insurer must be notified when the ship enters the waters, and the ship must pay much higher premiums if their route takes them through these waters. Some of those include Thailand, Sumatra, and areas that aren't at war, but have a pirate problem.

I can't locate the list itself--or maybe I have, and don't read legalese well enough!--but there are a number of articles on-line about countries in southeast Asia lobbying to be taken off this list, as the price jump is evidentally quite prohibitive. If you google for "Lloyd's war risk list"

So for what that's worth, it does appear that Lloyd's does recognize there's a significant difference in the safety of certain waters, and gets much higher premiums in those areas (or at least tells the insurers to get them, since Lloyd's is an underwriter.)

 

[krelnius]

meh

Meh, thats alright UrsulaV, I think what u said is enough. Well, that coupled with the stuff I read outta james randis encyclopedia.

Nice to know most of the stuff really pushing the amazing was forged. That really does settle it for me really. I mean, if there was really something there then nobody would need to make up lies about it to sell books about it.

You don't gotta lie about penguins, for instance, to sell penguin books. I mean....their PENGUINS...the books practically sell themselves. Damn.

Thanks to some other folks on these forums I've become skeptic of some other things as well....by the way, does anyone here know if Ripleys: Blieve it or Not! has ever forged any information or been completely tricked by a con artist of sorts without knowing? I've seen some things on the show that just can't be real. I remember 1 episode where a little oriental man supposedly charged over 100 degrees F of heat into a moist rag in his hand. They used a camera that shows heat to emphasize this so the heat itself must have been real unless they completely blew smoke up my ass.

I hesitate to accuse Ripleys the show though cause wouldnt they be risking a lot to put on something they knew was fake and claim it was real and not a trick? So, does anyone know anything about this? If so, please enlighten me!

 

[MRC_Hans]

*snip*
Hans- on the shallow gas business- I agree the threat to ships is small. The threat to a rig is far greater because of three factors-
1. The rig may actually release the gas during shallow drilling.
2. The rig is unable to move off location fast enough to escape a rising plume of gas.
3. Rigs are not, like ships, designed to roll. A sudden gas release under one pontoon of a floater can tilt the whole structure sharply. At this point, tubular goods (drillpipe / casing) start sliding and fluids (oil / water / drilling mud) start to slosh. The effect can be a sudden , positive feedback loop which flips the whole structure. (A rig with a derrick full of drillpipe has a far higher centre of gravity than any ship).

I have heard of one confirmed incident of the sort, in the S.China Seas in the seventies. Can't recall the details though. I'll ask around.

In addition, jackup rigs- where the legs are grounded on bottom- are vulnerable to gas release scouring the seabed around the ballast cans and undermining the structure. I have personal experience of this one. Deeply unamusing.

Certainly. But I don't remember the BT being connected to rigs in particular.

Hans

 

[MRC_Hans]

Ok now thats not fair to brand me as the kind of person that can't accept fact and will only continue to kick back suggestions.

*snip*

Might be unfair, but the pattern is recognizable and well-known around here. You can easily prove me wrong, however .

Hans

 

[Tirdun]

Out of memory, a show that tracked the LofLondon costs mentioned the two capes and the south china sea as the most expensive to insure for cargo. For people, any cruise-heavy areas were expensive, but not because of ships going down. It was all about personal-injury and medical stuff like food poisoning.

 

[UrsulaV]

Thanks to some other folks on these forums I've become skeptic of some other things as well....by the way, does anyone here know if Ripleys: Blieve it or Not! has ever forged any information or been completely tricked by a con artist of sorts without knowing?

They definitely have a number of items of questionable veracity. (I suspect that's why the "or not!" is added.) Plenty of their stuff IS true, mind you--my grandfather was incredibly proud of his appearance on Ripley's when he was in college, where he made some unbelievably long run in football the WRONG WAY, realized his mistake, turned around, and made four yards back before being flattened*--and I have no reason to disbelieve artifacts like a car made out of matchsticks. But they do bill a lot of their stuff as "illusions."

The one that I remember from the last time I visited one of their museums as a kid was a "bottomless gourd," a large gourd suspended in the air over the water, with water pouring in a seemingly endless stream from it. Was it bottomless? Nah, there was a clear glass tube inside the stream, pumping the water back up. Clever visual illusion, made your eyes water after a minute, but nothing extraordinary.

A lot of it's carefully, but ambiguously claimed, though--instead of saying "Bottomless gourd! Maaaagic!" they'd say, oh, "How is this gourd doing this? Is it an ancient curse or an illusion? Such-and-such of the Whozits tribe told stories of gourds like this belonging to powerful evil magicians! Believe it...or not!" They haven't lied at any point, but it's still just a clear glass tube.

As for the guy heating the rag...there's all kinds of possibilities, the most prosaic of which are that the guy had a lighter or some other device that generated heat. (They sell those chemical sticks that you break and they heat up rapidly, at sporting goods stores.) Since it's via camera, it's one of those things impossible to check, but I wouldn't lose sleep over it. *grin*



*This anecdote was read at his funeral, at his request. I suspect this was one of the highlights of his life.

 

[richardm]

As for the guy heating the rag...there's all kinds of possibilities, the most prosaic of which are that the guy had a lighter or some other device that generated heat

Or soak a rag in boiled linseed oil and wait.

 

[JayT]

Calling Dr. Woo - Emergency

....

 

[JayT]

Calling Dr. Woo - Emergency

With all the intelligence floating around this forum I thought I'd ask a question that I'd love a reasonable answer to, which is the Bermuda Triangles possble scientific explanation.

There is no mystery of the triangle, except to those who wish to believe there is.

The biggest mystery is why it's considered a mystery at all.

Nothing strange or unusual ever happened in the 'Bermuda Triangle' that defies logical scientific understanding - except what the mystery actually is supposed to be in the first place.



Here's an interesting article that provides food for thought:

http://www.rense.com/general5/mystasd.htm

 

[JayT]

Grrrrr ...

Anyone know how to delete a message ?

I accidentally posted one twice and can't find any way to delete the duplicate.

I got a 404 error after posting it and assumed the post failed. So I went back to post it again.

Then I saw two copies.

It's a perfectionist's nightmare!

Grrrrrrrrrr

 

[kookbreaker]

There is no mystery of the triangle, except to those who wish to believe there is.

The biggest mystery is why it's considered a mystery at all.

Nothing strange or unusual ever happened in the 'Bermuda Triangle' that defies logical scientific understanding - except what the mystery actually is supposed to be in the first place.

When a 'phenomenoe' is being debunked on kid's science shows, you know it is in deep trouble.

(Beakman's World debunked the Bermuda Triangle, albeit with a few quip comments.)

 

[davefoc]

Anyone know how to delete a message ?

I accidentally posted one twice and can't find any way to delete the duplicate.

I got a 404 error after posting it and assumed the post failed. So I went back to post it again.

Then I saw two copies.

It's a perfectionist's nightmare!

Grrrrrrrrrr

The ability for a mortal to delete a thread was eliminated a long time ago. You can delete almost your entire post within the period an edit is allowed however.

I suppose you could get a forum god to delete it for you but I haven't seen them doing that. On the other hand would I notice a deleted post?

 

[JayT]

To Err is Human, to Forgive, Denied.

... On the other hand would I notice a deleted post?

If you could, you might just qualify for the JREF prize !!!

LOL


Thanx.

I was getting the impression that message deleting was not directly allowed by the powers that be. So, I just edited and deleted the text of the redundant message. It was the closest thing I could do to what I wanted.

However, it would seem logical that the ability to edit one's own post should also include the ability to simply delete it as well, at least under some given conditions. Mistakes do happen.

 

[mbscientist]

why do you say this. there are different theoris about the bermuda triangle. some say there is some like this some say no, but they are scientist and you are not. if you are a scientist exuse me if you are not...

 

[John Jones]

Thread necromancy.