Science versus the Death Penalty

[plindboe]

Which is a great example of why I respect your opinion, AS. I disagree with it, but I respect it.

You come right out and say what it is you have a problem with. You aren't trying to hide behind a "someone innocent might get executed" excuse, while in reality not wanting ANYONE executed.

If someone is against the death penalty because they consider it murder, that's an opinion I can respect. But if someone instead talks around the issue, and is always falling back on the "someone innocent might get executed" line, because they think that they can get more sympathy to their cause, I consider that to be a bit deceptive.

It's a valid argument as the system is not perfect. Personally I might approve of the death penalty if the system could be perfect, but it is(/can) not, therefore innocent victims will automatically follow. The argument cuts to the chase more than any other, as one has to choose whether one will approve of these sacrifices of innocent lives or not.

 

[Grammatron]

In my opinion, the whole "how many innocent men or women" argument misses the point regarding the death penalty. If you are against the death penalty for moral or principled reasons, it doesn't matter how many innocent persons might be executed. Those morals or principles remain inviolate, despite any empirical or theoretical numbers.

Personally, I'm against the death penalty due to my strongly held belief that it should never be within the state's (or the people's) authority to decide whether or not to take the life of its citizens or those under its lawful jurisdiction. Never.

What is your view on the Police then?

 

[Orwell]

What is your view on the Police then?

Can cops execute people? I know they can shoot at them, under certain circumstances. Is that the same as executing? If yes, why?

 

[Elind]

I would personally rather be killed right this moment than spend decades in prison and released later for a crime I didn't commit. Prison isn't always preferable to death. Not for me, at least.

I'd prefer to hear your position on that after they catch up with you.

 

[Grammatron]

Can cops execute people? I know they can shoot at them, under certain circumstances. Is that the same as executing? If yes, why?

AS did not say execute.

 

[Whoracle]

I wonder when life in prison became some kind of luxory cruise.

 

[Cylinder]

Can cops execute people?

The police have no standing to decide who is or is not executed, if that's what you mean. Unless a defendant waives his or her right to jury trial, it is the trial jury that sets the penalty. If jury trial is waived, it is the trial judge that sets the penalty. A judge can reject a death penalty recommendation by a jury in many states but cannot impose it in instances where the jury does not recommend.

I know they can shoot at them, under certain circumstances. Is that the same as executing? If yes, why?

Not at all. Use of lethal force by police can never be a punitive measure and cannot be used as a preventative measure in most instances not involving the loss of human life. Police are restricted in the use of lethal force to only those instances where an immediate threat to human life exists which is much more restrictive than ordinary civilians, where lethal force in many states can be used in most any instance of home intrusion, to prevent crimes against the person such as rape and even to prevent property crimes such as burglary.^1
1Individual statutes may vary. Poster is not responsible if your crazy ass shoots someone and tries to use the infamous "JREF defense."

 

[Freakshow]

I'd prefer to hear your position on that after they catch up with you.

I've been in prison lots of times, but always on the CORRECT side of the bars. Even spending a small amount of time on the correct side of the bars was extremely unpleasant. I simply cannot imagine being on the wrong side of those bars for any amount of time.

Granted, these were some very tough prisons. These were local prisons in an area that had a very high violent crime rate. Lots of gang activity. This wasn't some federal country club.

Yes, I would take death over being in one of those prisons for decades. And with the changes that prison would put me through, I wouldn't have much of a life to look forward to anymore, anyway.

 

[Orwell]

AS did not say execute.

So why do you mention the police in the context of a discussion on the death penalty? Doesn't seem very relevant...

 

[Grammatron]

So why do you mention the police in the context of a discussion on the death penalty? Doesn't seem very relevant...

I was responding to his post.

 

[Elind]

I've been in prison lots of times, but always on the CORRECT side of the bars. Even spending a small amount of time on the correct side of the bars was extremely unpleasant. I simply cannot imagine being on the wrong side of those bars for any amount of time.

Granted, these were some very tough prisons. These were local prisons in an area that had a very high violent crime rate. Lots of gang activity. This wasn't some federal country club.

Yes, I would take death over being in one of those prisons for decades. And with the changes that prison would put me through, I wouldn't have much of a life to look forward to anymore, anyway.

Sounds realistic. So what is it with those who think death is a better punishment? Are they mostly religious people doing god's work, or are they just mean, or perhaps cheap, thinking it costs less for life (wrong)?

 

[Tmy]

I against the DP because the system is bias and flawed. That being said their are some real asswipes who really deserve to be eliminated.

 

[Elind]

I against the DP because the system is bias and flawed. That being said their are some real asswipes who really deserve to be eliminated.

I agree, but the last part only really makes sense to those willing to volunteer to do it.

 

[Freakshow]

Sounds realistic. So what is it with those who think death is a better punishment? Are they mostly religious people doing god's work, or are they just mean, or perhaps cheap, thinking it costs less for life (wrong)?

I've thought a lot about this. I have always had trouble figuring out why people would prefer life in prison to death.

I understand it with career criminals. There are some people who have been in and out of prison much of their lives. There is a social structure in prison. If you have someone who has been involved in gangs his whole life, and has been in and out of prison, it is certain there are fellow gang members there. Prison for them isn't the best place to be, but there are things in prison that are extensions from the life they have outside of prison. You can be a drug-using gangbanger out of prison, and you can be a drug-using gangbanger in prison. I can understand, in a sick twisted way, why such people prefer to continue life in prison, rather than dying.

But when you have someone who has never been a criminal before, has never been to prison before, and has no place in the prison culture (other than being someone's b***h on a regular basis), I have no idea why the prefer life in prison over execution. I guess some people are just that terribly afraid of death.

ETA: I forgot to mention that another possible reason people would prefer life in prison is that they want to remain in contact with their family. More for the family's sake, than for their own. I don't know for sure that it is a motivation some people have. But it is a possibility.

 

[toddjh]

If someone is against the death penalty because they consider it murder, that's an opinion I can respect. But if someone instead talks around the issue, and is always falling back on the "someone innocent might get executed" line, because they think that they can get more sympathy to their cause, I consider that to be a bit deceptive.

I think that's a little bit unfair. What about those of us, like me, who have no objection to the death penalty in principle, and who think there are some crimes which deserve it, and who agree that the state has the moral authority to execute people convicted of those crimes, but who also think the way the death penalty is applied in the real world is flawed to the point where equal protection under the law is violated?

Practical objections are not always smokescreens for stealth agendas.

Jeremy

 

[Freakshow]

I think that's a little bit unfair. What about those of us, like me, who have no objection to the death penalty in principle, and who think there are some crimes which deserve it, and who agree that the state has the moral authority to execute people convicted of those crimes, but who also think the way the death penalty is applied in the real world is flawed to the point where equal protection under the law is violated?

That's just fine. I have no issue with that at all. Because you were honest and open with your beliefs. I respect that.

 

[RandFan]

I personally find the point to be moot. Why institute a non-reversible consequence (capital punishment) for crimes when a reversible one (life in prison) is readily available. As I have stated before, a goverment should not be in the practice of executing its citizens, ever, at all.

I don't agree.

If, however, it feels it must execute some number if said citizens, then it had damn well be certain the correct persons are executed.

I agree. Further, the punishment should not be arbitrary or capricious (yeah, I know, problematic for the start). In any event perhaps we are incapable of equitably administering capital punishment. The poor are more likely to receive capital punishment than the rich. Minorities are more likely to receive the death penalty than whites. For these reasons I'm on the fence.

There is no number of guilty lives worth the taking of just one innocent life.

I don't agree. Should all societal decisions be weighed first in an attempt to eliminate the loss of any and all innocent lives? I doubt we could even if we did believe in such an ideal. I'm not sure it is practical. Sure we could eliminate the death penalty and perhaps we should but we would not meet your ideal simply by doing so.

 

[Tmy]

I've thought a lot about this. I have always had trouble figuring out why people would prefer life in prison to death.
.

Its instinctive to fear death. Thats why the biggest Jesus holy roller still doesnt want to die. You think they would welcome a ticket to heaven.

 

[Freakshow]

Its instinctive to fear death. Thats why the biggest Jesus holy roller still doesnt want to die. You think they would welcome a ticket to heaven.

I've never been able to figure that one out, either.

 

[Elind]

I have no idea why the prefer life in prison over execution. I guess some people are just that terribly afraid of death.

Seriously?

Presumably you are one of those honorable Greeks who would just drink the hemlock after the verdict.

Of course most people are afraid of death, or at the very least want to see if tomorrow offers anything more entertaining.

To be realistic however, most death row inmates have already spent a large part of their lives in jail. It's just another day in a motel. Why would they suddenly want to die?

If I had my way, I'd offer lifers a free cyanide pill whenever they wanted one, just like the Greeks did. Free will and all that.