Science Disproves Evolution

[SezMe]

Just look at your trash stream and think about how it got there.

That's a pretty harsh way to speak of this thread.

On a serious note, it was Fiorna way back on page 2 or so who questioned why folks keep responding to someone who is clearly not here for learning or discussion. The question remains pertinent. Yes, I've read most of it. The first few pages were yielded a chuckle or two. Thereafter, zip. I have no excuse.

 

[DarthFishy]

That's a pretty harsh way to speak of this thread.

On a serious note, it was Fiorna way back on page 2 or so who questioned why folks keep responding to someone who is clearly not here for learning or discussion. The question remains pertinent. Yes, I've read most of it. The first few pages were yielded a chuckle or two. Thereafter, zip. I have no excuse.

I keep reading because I keep learning stuff I have to assume they I suffer from some alcohol induced short term memory loss though due to how many times these same questions have been answered on these forums and yet every time I learn something new!

 

[Aitch]

As Tricky once noted: You couldn't get two of every animal on the ark if you froze and stacked them.

IIRC it was only two of the 'unclean' animals; for the 'clean' ones it was seven.

Which would make fitting them in a tad more difficult. Frozen or not.

 

[Mashuna]

Not in the sense of saying "I support this conclusion." The quoted scientists have made discoveries that support Brown's conclusions.

In whose opinion?

 

[joobz]

In what way?

I'm glad you admit your ignorance here.

People have long known that it is hard to keep hot and cold separated. Hot things cool down and cold things naturally warm up. That’s why the ice melts in your refrigerator if the power goes out. Entropy is a measure of how evenly distributed heat is. As the ice melts in your refrigerator, the entropy of the refrigerator, and the air in your kitchen surrounding it, increases. The same thing is true of information.

http://www.scienceagainstevolution.org/v10i11f.htm

The operative term is "if the power goes out".
What is it that allows the refrigerator to maintain a lower entropic state within in when the power is on?

 

[Delvo]

IIRC it was only two of the 'unclean' animals; for the 'clean' ones it was seven.

Genesis 6:19-20 says 2 of each.

Genesis 7:2-3 says 7 of the clean kinds (even though nobody has eaten meat yet).

Genesis 7:8-9 and 7:16 say 2 of each.

Genesis 8:20 says there are extra animals available to sacrifice immediately afterward, so it's more than 2 of at least some sacrificible species. (Maybe that's how clean/unclean is defined.)

 

[Craig4]

I
Let's pick an easy one.
Please show me how any part of Stephen Hawkin's published works support the idea of a world-wide flood in the past 5000 years.

I think it is fair to ask this question because you have posted this information often enough that you must think it is an important part of the argument.

Someone needs to read Stephan Hawkin's latest Book "The Grand Design". It will become very clear to you early on that Stephan Hawkin in no way shape or form endorses the Great Flood idea (note I did not say theory as it doesn't qualify as one) or a young universe. He would probably be amused (in a dark way) that he's being used to justify creationism.

 

[joobz]

Your analogies don't address thermodynamics. The fridge is receiving power from outside. Living organisms are created to digest food, etc.

The Second Law states: Every system, left to its own devices, always tends to move from order to disorder, its energy tending to be transformed into lower levels of availability (for work), ultimately becoming totally random and unavailable for work.
...or...
The entropy of a closed system cannot decrease.

1.) food = outside power.
2.) "left to it's own devices". what does this even mean? A crystal is of greater order than a liquid state, yet if the temperature is brought down below the solidification point, the crystal WILL form.
3.) A living entity breathes in and exhales. It ingests and poops. it takes in liquids and excretes them. An organism IN NO WAY can be classified as a closed system.

 

[Delvo]

More fun with numbers in the Great Flood:

Genesis 7:10 says the flood begins at the end of 7 days. Days since what? If it's since God gave Noah the orders, then that gives him 7 days to build it and collect specimens. If it's since Noah completed construction, that still gives him 7 days to collect specimens. But is has to be one of those two, because it can't be since they entered the ark, not only because getting in and waiting a week for the rain to start makes no sense, but also because Genesis 7:13 says they did that on the day the rain started.

According to Genesis 7:12 and 7:17, it rained for 40 days and nights. According to Genesis 7:24, it rained for 150 days. According to Genesis 8:3-5, the water had disappeared by the end of 150 days.

But the ship doesn't hit land until the 17th day of the 7th month, so it was floating around in the air for a couple of months. We could figure that's the 17th of the 7th of Noah's 600th year, rather than of the Flood; with the Flood having begun on the 17th day of the 2nd month of his 600th year, this is 5 months (150 days or somewhere around that) into the Flood instead of roughly 7.5 months into it... in which case the ship hits a mountain not about 2.5 months after the water disappeared, but on or about the same day. That still means, in order to hit land at that altitude instead of at the level of the water, either the ship was floating in the sky above the water for whatever amount of time it takes for all that water to gradually recede, OR it only floated on water and hit the mountain about when the water exposed the mountain BUT that was the same day that all the rest of the water covering the world also disappeared... which would mean, based on the height of Mount Ararat above sea level and 24 hours for the water to recede all the way, the water level went down at a rate of about 3'7" or 108.7 cm per minute (³/₄" or 1.8cm per second)... either 40 or 150 times the rate at which it had accumulated; fast enough to actually watch the water level change.

But wait, there's more! In Genesis 8:6, after just 40 days, Noah opens the door but can't see whether the water's still there or not. Is he blind? That would explain why the mountaintops still can't be seen until the 10th month (Genesis 8:3-5), about 2.5 months after the ship hit one (and the water disappeared). Why doesn't the Bible mention God's reason for blinding him? And God sets a limit of 120 years on the human life span before the Flood in Genesis 6:3, but Genesis 11:12-32 includes at least 8 guys born after the Flood living more than 120 years; for those life spans to be less than the 120 year length described before the Flood, they must be measured in shorter years; the Flood must have increased the planet's orbital speed around the sun!

 

[Dancing David]

You lose:

Near the end of the flood, the compression event crushed and fractured rock, producing additional electrical discharges. Hot SCW (held in the spongelike voids in the lower crust) and 222Rn (an inert gas produced in plasma channels) were forced up through these channels and fractures. As the mineral-rich water rose hours and days later, its pressure and temperature dropped, so minerals such as biotite and fluorite began forming in the channels. Wormlike myrmekite also formed as quartz and feldspars precipitated in the thin, threadlike channels “drilled” by the powerful electrical discharges and by SCW (a penetrating solvent).

[From "In the Beginning" by Walt Brown http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/Radioactivity5.html#wp1660795]

Before the flood, SCW dissolved granite’s more soluble components, such as quartz and feldspars, giving the lower crust a spongelike texture. During the compression event, high-pressure fluids that had filled those spongelike voids were injected up into fractures in the earth’s crust. As the hydrothermal fluids rose, their pressures and temperatures dropped, so quartz and feldspars came out of solution and sometimes grew large crystals called pegmatites. This also explains the origin of most mineral-rich, hydrothermal fluids and most of earth’s ore bodies.

[From "In the Beginning" by Walt Brown http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/Radioactivity6.html#wp1661231]

Before the flood, SCW easily dissolved certain minerals in granite (such as quartz and feldspars). During the flood, those hot solutions filled the extremely thin, nearly parallel channels that extended up from the subterranean chamber. After the flood, those solutions rose, evaporated, and cooled, while quartz and feldspars precipitated in some of those channels, becoming myrmekite.

[From "In the Beginning" by Walt Brown
http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/Radioactivity5.html#wp2658238]

So either you or Brown does not use the term liquefaction properly.

 

[Dancing David]

They are found in the links provided. Denial noted!

Give it you already had to retract your former statement and made a liar of yourself.

maybe you should start by being coherent and self honest.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6405698&postcount=210

I consider the fact that the scientist who confirm Brown's conclusions are quoted from peer reviewed science journals. It is my understanding only scientists are allowed to publish in those journals.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6417051&postcount=296

Not in the sense of saying "I support this conclusion." The quoted scientists have made discoveries that support Brown's conclusions.

21 meter salute!

 

[Dancing David]

Your analogies don't address thermodynamics. The fridge is receiving power from outside. Living organisms are created to digest food, etc.

The Second Law states: Every system, left to its own devices, always tends to move from order to disorder, its energy tending to be transformed into lower levels of availability (for work), ultimately becoming totally random and unavailable for work.
...or...
The entropy of a closed system cannot decrease.

Again this applies to all systems and the universe in total! Not just a closed system, but to any system

When you buy food, it came there through entropy, the animals and plants created more entropy, when you eat the food you create more entropy.
Life creates more entropy all the time at what ever scale you look at.

You are trying to legalize the expression entropy. The whole system has more entropy after you eat than before.
The whole system has more entropy after something is alive than before.
Always.

The second law presents an insurmountable problem to the concept of a natural, mechanistic process: (1) by which the physical universe could have formed spontaneously from nothing, and

Gosh Pahu, we don't know where the universe came from, "we don't know" does not equal "nothing". Stick to one straw argument at a time, you do not understand thermodynamics, don't muddle the BBE on top of it.

(2) by which biological life could have arisen and diversified (also spontaneously) from a non-living, inanimate world. (Both postulates form essential planks in the platform of evolutionary theory in general.)

Flush out your head gear newbie and learn to think.

The BBE and abiogenesis are NOT the theory of evolution through reproductive success.

For details go here: http://www.trueorigin.org/steiger.asp

 

[Dancing David]

Was There Room?

Could the Ark have held all the animals? Easily. A few humans, some perhaps hired by others, could build a boat (a) large enough to hold representatives of every air-breathing land animal—perhaps 16,000 animals in all. (Of course, sea creatures did not need to be on the Ark. Nor did insects or amphibians. Only mammals, birds, reptiles, and humans. Much plant life survived the flood in a surprisingly simple way (b)). The Ark, having at least 1,500,000 cubic feet of space, was adequate to hold these animals, their provisions, and all their other needs for one year (c).

There are NO insects in the ocean dude. Most plants die when flooded.

Heaping ignorance upon ignorance does not mean anything other than ignorance.

Why do farmers hate to have their fields flooded?
especially with sea water?

 

[SumDood]

...large enough to hold representatives of every air-breathing land animal—perhaps 16,000 animals in all...

...The Ark, having at least 1,500,000 cubic feet of space...

Lets play with these numbers, why don't we.

So 16,000 animals means 8000 pairs. Lets keep it simple and on the conservative side and say Noah only had to travel on average 100 miles total to retrieve the animals. And in the interest of keeping it simple, lets say he can pick up more than one pair on each of these, on average, 100 mile journeys. Lets say he gets 16 pairs per trip. 8000 pairs at 16 pairs a trip leaves 500 trips, which at 100 miles a trip totals 50,000 miles to travel. Lets say for whatever reason he's able to make these trips at a average pace of 5 miles an hour (slightly faster than the average human gate). 50,000 miles at 5 miles an hour gives us 10,000 hours of travel time, or about a year and two months just to gather the animals.

If it took on average one minute to feed the animals, it would take 5 and a half days to put food in each of the 8000 pens.

If each animal had an average daily bowel movement of 4 cubic inches (do i really need to say where i pulled this number from?), that would make 37 cubic feet of poop every day.

Yeah, this would have been better with more examples, but my head hurts, so come up with your own if you want.

 

[X]

Pahu, for the sake of understanding, please define "entropy".

 

[Delvo]

The Ark, having at least 1,500,000 cubic feet of space...

The specified length, width, and height would make a rectangular prism of that volume, but no boat is that shape. A boat of a given length, width, and height only occupies some fraction of the total rectangular volume defined by that same set of dimensions. If there were a box of those dimensions, the boat would fit inside with room to spare.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Okay, the animals started showing up six months before the Floyd, right?
How did they get fed? The Noahnauts were building the Ark.

They were inside for 40 days while it rained. The Ark floated for 150 days after the rain stopped to allow for drainage. Six months plus 40 days plus 150 days equals . . . many days. (Say, 370.)

Now, the Earth was underwater for at least 150 days, more in places. So it's barren. No grass, trees, flowers, etc. What are the animals eating until the Earth recovers? (If you think that would happen in one season or even one year you must believe in miracles. (Oh, wait!))

So, there's a lot of carnivores looking at the herbivores, and a lot of herbivores looking at barren ground.

BUT, it gets better. Ask your fundie friends this question: If the Noahnauts were the only people left after the Floyd, then can we not say the whole human race is the product of incest? Noah's boys must have bred with Noah's girls, who else did they have?

 

[Dinwar]

What are the animals eating until the Earth recovers? (If you think that would happen in one season or even one year you must believe in miracles.

I believe the result of this is what's termed "mass extinction".

BUT, it gets better. Ask your fundie friends this question: If the Noahnauts were the only people left after the Floyd, then can we not say the whole human race is the product of incest? Noah's boys must have bred with Noah's girls, who else did they have?

Back in my catholic school days one of my classmates used this reasoning to justify his depiction of Adam and Eve with eight fingers on a hand and with IQs of around 200. He was a farm boy--he knew that imbred cats loose toes and get stupid. QED. The nuns were.....not impressed....

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I believe the result of this is what's termed "mass extinction".

Back in my catholic school days one of my classmates used this reasoning to justify his depiction of Adam and Eve with eight fingers on a hand and with IQs of around 200. He was a farm boy--he knew that imbred cats loose toes and get stupid. QED. The nuns were.....not impressed....

And Eden wasn't in Arkansas.

 

[Craig4]

Back in my catholic school days one of my classmates used this reasoning to justify his depiction of Adam and Eve with eight fingers on a hand and with IQs of around 200. He was a farm boy--he knew that imbred cats loose toes and get stupid. QED. The nuns were.....not impressed....

Oooo ouch. Having a similar upbringing I can imagine.