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Split Thread Science cannot explain consciousness, therefore....

(...)I assure you neither of these questions even make sense. You don't seem to understand what I mean by "consistency" at all.
Why? I think that my questions are very useful for our debate. Why do you think they have not any sense?

What do you mean by "consistence"?

(a) In Aristotelian logic: two or more statements are called consistent if they are simultaneously true under some interpretation .
(b) In modern logic: a set of statements is called consistent with respect to a certain logical calculus, if no formula ‘P & –P’ is derivable from those statements by the rules of the calculus; i.e., the theory is free from contradictions. (From The Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy)

This is totally consistent with the concept of truth as coherence that I have mentioned some comments above. Neopositivists defend (b).

I don’t know other concept of consistence but if you have a personal concept we need to know it.

NOTE: If you refuse to answer my questions the dialogue becomes impossible.
 
Why? I think that my questions are very useful for our debate. Why do you think they have not any sense?

Well I'm not good at creating definitions so I'll illustrate:

It's possible when you have a dream to have mutually-contradictory events occur, or to imagine impossible shapes, or to "feel" colour or other such nonsense. You can be in a room thinking about doing something, and then walk a short distance, suddenly find yourself in a different room and completing your task by doing something entirely different as if nothing happened. "Reality" is not like that. You can't have inconsistencies, and I challenge anyone to provide examples of those. My argument is that the consistency of things that we don't know come from our minds versus the inconsistency of things we know for a fact come from our minds is a very good and reasonable standard to use in determining what's real or not. Then we can actually test this assumption using things like science, and so far we've been 100% correct, it seems.

NOTE: If you refuse to answer my questions the dialogue becomes impossible.

That seems obvious. :)
 
My argument is that the consistency of things that we don't know come from our minds versus the inconsistency of things we know for a fact come from our minds is a very good and reasonable standard to use in determining what's real or not.

We know that when we dream/hallucinate, it's not real, since our experiences don't conform to any sensible input received from out senses at the time, or to the laws of physics as we understand it.
We conclude the world is real and not the dream/hallucination, since our experiences, when awake, do conform to the input our senses are receiving and the laws of physics.
This makes sense to me, it's utterly sensible. :)

This is great for telling "fake" experiences from "real" experiences in a material universe. On the other hand, if you guys are still talking philosophy, it won't in any way convince a solipsist.
 
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The way I understand it, the solipsist's mind is partitioned.
One part represents the conscious mind ("brain" in the BIV) and the other an "unconscious" mind ("computer" in the BIV). Therefore to a solipsist "Belz...'s Test" will only distinguish between the two partitions of the same mind.

The solipsist believes that the "unconscious mind" "runs" on the laws of physics as we understand it. He does not deny the laws of science, or that they have a huge impact on what he experiences, only that they originate in a physical universe. He thinks they originate in his mind.
 
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Call it what you will "external reality" or "uncontrollable part of the mind".

A solipsist is the equivalent of a religious person believing only he has a soul and that there is only one to go around.
 
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Call it what you will "external reality" or "uncontrollable part of the mind".

A solipsist is the equivalent of a religious person believing only he has a soul and that there is only one to go around.

a solipsist is a materialist (believing in consciousness as a local phenomenon or process) who makes the error in thinking that his/her local phenomenon is all there is, and there is no independent reality other than his/her local conscious processes. Solipsism can not exist in non materialist frameworks.
 
The solipsist's mind functions in such a way so as to exactly replicate the experiences that a mind in a material universe would have.
Or as the solipsist would say: "Your hypothetical, material universe, functions in such a way so as to exactly replicate the experiences of a solipsist? Seems unlikely."

IOW it's functionally materialism, but without the material (and with only one mind of course).
In a similar situation the solipsist is expected to react the same way as a materialist, like getting out of harms way for example.
 
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David Mo said:
Curious why you think this begs the question.

If we are brains in a vat, then the statement "we are brains in a vat" refers not to actual physical vats but vat-dream vats. The statement would be false.

Only if we are not brains in a vat would the statement "we are brains in a vat" refer to actual physical vats.

Your/Putnam's argument begs the question because you assume that truth means correspondence with the thing as external thing. Solipsist can hold a different concept of truth. Internal consistence, for example. This is not strange. Neopositivists defend this concept of truth.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coherence_theory_of_truth

When I was a student I had endless discussions with supporters of coherence theory. Neopositivists. Neopositivists are not solipsists, but they are first cousins. I can assure you they were tough guys.


interesting, never occurred to me presupposing empirical reality to be a faulty premise :D
 
Toilet mind!

This is something I've wondered about before, can you create a "toilet mind", a mind thinking with a brain made of toilets?
IOW can you make a BIV, but with lots of toilets instead of a brain?
Will it have a mind?
Might YOU be one and not even know it?

:D

Intellectually I have to say YES, but it feels so wrong.

I just googled "toilet mind brain analogy" and there does not seem to be anything specifically discussing this particular thought experiment.

I'm with Darat in believing the mind is a process. It should not matter what hardware the process is implemented on, only that the process is equivalent. An equivalent process must have an equivalent experience.

An automatic toilet that flushes when it's tank is full is perfect for this, since it is equivalent to a neuron. Toilets, like neurons have a threshold, a refractory period, an action potential and a resting potential.
In theory you should be able to exactly duplicate the wiring network of a brain with pipes and all the neurons with toilets. Your supercomputer would monitor all the "motor" pipes coming from the toilet brain and have "sensory" pumps feeding it water.

;)

:confused:

:boggled:
 
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This is rigurously false. Have you seen the abstracts of the articles referenced? Many of them are about how different features of conscience arouse. Others about the relation mind-brain directly. They are psychological or philosophical articles. None of them is formulated in a physicalist language.

Again, psychology does not tell us how consciousness arose; this is the province of the natural sciences such as biology. “Biology is the science of life. Its name is derived from the Greek words "bios" (life) and "logos" (study). Biologists study the structure, function, growth, origin, evolution and distribution of living organisms”. Live Science.

OTOH In psychology the existence of consciousness is assumed. The Encyclopedia Britannica defines Psychology as: “A scientific discipline that studies mental states and processes and behaviour in humans and other animals”.

Where? What of your articles of faith?


Science idolatry is not science.

Recognising the role of science vis-à-vis metaphysics is not idolatry. Science is “The intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment”. Oxford Dictionary.
 
IanS, you are doing exactly this:



Even if you presented rock solid proof a real BIV is impossible, it will not change the argument/point.
The argument/point is theoretical.
There is NO real BIV in a thought experiment.


I have no idea what you are now talking about, and in the words of Sam Harris "what's more, I don't think you have either!" :D.

The so-called "BIV" argument of philosophy, is a word-argument; an argument about, and from, a construction in the selective use of language. That point is actually inadvertantly highlighted in that linked article (note how many times it has to talk about it's semantic nature and about what should be, or should not be, the meaning of the words that the argument prefers to use. It is also an argument that even within philosophy itself, has been shown to be if not actually flat-out wrong, then at least in serious doubt ... but far worse than any of that ...

... it is also an argument that has to begin with various unwarranted un-evidenced assumptions of the most fanciful kind, which in your language here, you tried to justify by avoiding the word "assumption" and saying instead it is "a given" ... well that's just yet another selective use of language in attempt to hide the fact that you are making assumptions, such as the assumption that a BIV (if that were even possible at all, and you certainly cannot show that it is) would experience the identical things that a human brain experiences in a real world body with real world surroundings ... when you write things like "that is a given", that is just a form of words used to obscure/hide the very obvious fact that it's actually an assumption on your part.

But apart from all those problems with the philosophical word-game known as "BIV", that entire scenario of a BIV is not in any case an example for solipsism (which is what you were presenting it as). In the "BIV" it is necessary to have an external reality in the first place. Whereas in solipsism (as insisted upon here by Larry, and then supported by yourself and David Mo) there can be no external reality.

If you want to believe that claims such as “BIV” or Solipsism might be true, then your very next thought ought to be the realisation that absolutely anything “might” be true! It might be true that the person who thinks they are an alien who has created a brain in Vat, is himself just experiencing an illusion in his own mind, so that he is not actually an alien, but just a deluded human (eg a deluded human philosopher), who does not have any BIV, but who is instead just dreaming, hallucinating, or otherwise mentally inventing ideas that are taken from what is his actual real experience of real people, real brains, a sense of our real surroundings, a real exposure to alien stories in books etc., ... that are in fact all real parts of his own real world experience and his own real existence.
 
Well I'm not good at creating definitions so I'll illustrate:

It's possible when you have a dream to have mutually-contradictory events occur, or to imagine impossible shapes, or to "feel" colour or other such nonsense. You can be in a room thinking about doing something, and then walk a short distance, suddenly find yourself in a different room and completing your task by doing something entirely different as if nothing happened. "Reality" is not like that. You can't have inconsistencies, and I challenge anyone to provide examples of those. My argument is that the consistency of things that we don't know come from our minds versus the inconsistency of things we know for a fact come from our minds is a very good and reasonable standard to use in determining what's real or not. Then we can actually test this assumption using things like science, and so far we've been 100% correct, it seems.

Your mistake: Your description is not different from the solipsist’s description: There are impressions that appear in the mind with regularity—what you call “consistence”. You call them “real” and the solipsist calls them otherwise —“wakefulness”, for example. Other impressions are not regular or have other rules. You call them “dream” and the solipsist too. Your descriptions are exactly the same. A sequence of impressions produce an idea; another sequence produces a different idea.
If your description is consistent, the solipsist’s would be too because it is the same. But you add an additional idea: the impressions you call “real” are produced by an external thing. And the solipsist replies: “I don’t know any impression of what you call real. You and I only have a set of regulated impressions. This is what you have said. Your idea is not a logical deduction for previous impressions neither. Therefore you have not any evidence of this external world. You are speaking of something that you don’t know. Your idea of external world is not a true idea, but a mere belief. An irrational belief".

That seems obvious. :)
If it is obvious, you ought to answer my previous questions or explain why you cannot do it. I supose that you are avoiding embarrassing questions. :D
 
Again, psychology does not tell us how consciousness arose; this is the province of the natural sciences such as biology. “Biology is the science of life. Its name is derived from the Greek words "bios" (life) and "logos" (study). Biologists study the structure, function, growth, origin, evolution and distribution of living organisms”. Live Science.

Again: Have you read the bibliography that I put in my previous comments? Yes or not? Be honest, please.

I would be grateful if you could bring us a biology article published in a biology journal on consciousness. I'm interested.


OTOH In psychology the existence of consciousness is assumed. The Encyclopedia Britannica defines Psychology as: “A scientific discipline that studies mental states and processes and behaviour in humans and other animals”.
And what you think that consciousness is? A mental state.

Recognising the role of science vis-à-vis metaphysics is not idolatry. Science is “The intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment”. Oxford Dictionary.

Idolatry is to make a god of a thing. Idolatry is to believe that science has an answer to every question and knows everything. Science has its limits as every human knowledge and there are many questions that science cannot answer. O.K.?
 

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