• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Split Thread Science cannot explain consciousness, therefore....

Well, it's hardly a surprise that people (you in the present example) like to believe simplistic things from philosophers. That's nothing new, and it's certainly far easier than putting in real work to study & learn from science.

You are certainly not alone in preferring to believe simple and mysterious seeming things from ancient philosophy and religion. Even in educated western democracies probably 99% of the population are relatively ignorant of science and prefer to believe in all sorts of mystical & supernatural ideas. They think that's more interesting and far easier than putting in many years of hard work to understand how science has shown that all such ancient beliefs from philosophy and religion are untrue, and shown by the actual evidence to be little more fanciful mystical un-educated nonsense (scientifically “un-educated”).

Could science be significantly wrong in the way it currently describes the universe? Of course … science, scientists, and people here are not claiming that every description from science is always absolutely perfect to 100% certainty. But that is not a “gap” which can ever be honestly filled either with “God did it” or with a philosopher rushing in to say “quick, fill the gap with our claim that science cannot detect reality!”.

Even in educated western democracies nobody is able to know all the science produces in its huge dominion. A worms expert cannot be aware of the research on the limits of the galaxy and vice versa. Even their methodological practices are very different. Therefore, there is no science of the universe. Universe is a philosophical concept. Of course, their study should be reserved for scientists with philosophical knowledge and vice versa. This is what is meant by philosophy of science. If this symbiosis does not occur, a lot of nonsense is said, both in one field and in the other.


Certainly, philosophy is not the study of mysterious things of antiquity, as you seem to believe. It has evolved a lot since then and if Plato or Aristotle are still being studied it is because they can teach us something about the evolution of philosophy and even give us some idea to develop. What religion says is less interesting because while philosophers tried to speak about the universe by reasoning, religion only wants to speak from the point of revealed truth. This way we are not going anywhere.

You will be interested to know that when Einstein came to Spain to give a lecture on the theory of relativity, he chose for presentation a famous... Spanish metaphysicist. Amazing!
 
Do I believe that anything exists as an independent physical object? No, I don’t see any advantage to such a belief. Seems like much woo to me.

First of all, then you believe in nonsense. There is ample evidence that the physical is real. And second, of course you see an advantage. That's why you get out of the way of cars when you cross the street. Don't lie, now.
 
Do I believe that anything exists as an independent physical object? No, I don’t see any advantage to such a belief. Seems like much woo to me.

How does that work? Is it a kind of solipsism, where you only assume your own consciousness exists and doubt everything else?
Do you believe other minds exist too?
Do those minds (appear to) perceive the same 'external' world, that appears to be goverened by certain rules?
Is it possible to break these apparent rules, and affect reality by using nothing other than one's thoughts?
What happens when a mind with a non-existent body appears to get his by a supposedly non-existent car and appears to die? Is that an illusion? Where does the mind go, and why doesn't it appear to interact with the world anymore from the perspective of other disembodied minds who dream about being people?
 
Do I believe that anything exists as an independent physical object? No, I don’t see any advantage to such a belief. Seems like much woo to me.


Larry - if you don't believe that any "physical objects" exist, such that only your own thoughts exist, then can you explain where your thoughts are coming from? What is producing your thoughts? What is the mechanism for how that could happen without a "physical object" such as your brain?

Science of course has a very clear and highly detailed answer to that question, and it's published along with a mountain of evidence in countless papers in neuroscience, psychology and medicine. And your alternative "brainless" explanation is ... what?
 
Do I believe that anything exists as an independent physical object? No, I don’t see any advantage to such a belief. Seems like much woo to me.

In case it was how I worded it that has caused the confusion: Do you believe you exist?
 
A non-observational concept have not any evidence in experience, neither direct nor indirect.
Will” and “fair” are classical non-observational concepts.

...snip...


Of course they are observable - that's how I learnt how to label things "fair" or "will". I wasn't preprogrammed with the meaning of words "will" and "fair" when I was born, I learnt - by observation - what they meant.
 
Of course they are observable - that's how I learnt how to label things "fair" or "will". I wasn't preprogrammed with the meaning of words "will" and "fair" when I was born, I learnt - by observation - what they meant.

How do you know by observation if something is "fair"?
 
Here's my take on the "brain is a radio" analogy, from an old thread specifically on that topic.

(And yes, if we're talking about consciousness as "some kind of fundamental field that exists independently from brains, and that brains are just nodes that concentrate or warp this field," then the analogy of a radio definitely applies.)

The thing about that hypothesis is not that it's a dark horse hypothesis that's heroically managed to stay un-falsified. It is, instead, a tiny remnant of what used to be the dominant and only type of hypothesis: that the brain (or some other organ) is a vessel for an independently existing spiritual entity.

Imagine that you're an alien explorer. You find, on a deserted planet let's say, an object with various knobs and dials, from which sounds emanate. You decode the sound and find that it is a voice giving reports of events in a civilization, such as the rise and fall of the "stock market" and the political careers of various leaders. You turn some knobs and the device plays music instead, or presents multiple voices conversing about various topics including the fortunes of various competing sports teams, interspersed with commercials.

Examining the inside, you see various components, none of which look very complex but are unfamiliar to you. You can tell there's power flowing in there, but you don't know how any of it works. There are no other emanations from it besides the sounds that you can detect, and no incoming patterns of signals that you can detect that correlate with the output in any way.

You conclude that it is a radio, or at least a radio-like receiver even if you cannot otherwise detect the signal it's supposedly receiving. That's a reasonable conclusion, very similar to what humans concluded about the brain up until a very few centuries ago.

But then, further research starts presenting challenges to that view. It's discovered, for example, that manipulating the components inside the device can cause the stock market price being reported in the news reports to go up and down. Similar manipulations can also change the instrumentation, tune, or lyrics of the songs, or determine which sports teams have winning seasons, or change the prevalence of commercials. And microscopic examination of the components gradually reveals them to be far more complex than they appeared. They actually have vast information storage and information processing capabilities.

There is no choice but to revise your hypothesis, and to conclude that as hard as it is to believe, everything you're hearing from the "radio" is actually coming from processes going on inside the device. There are a few who hold out hope that the explanation is actually that the device is a transmitter as well as a receiver, so that when the components are manipulated, the civilization or entity in communication with the device notices the change and responds accordingly. But the failure to detect any such transmissions in either direction, or any such entity in the vicinity, and the overall predictive success of physical models suggesting that even an unknown type of influence could not propagate faster than the speed of light, loom larger and larger against that notion.

That's where we stand with mind, consciousness, and the brain. The "vessel" hypothesis was once the only respectable possibility, and has steadily lost standing to the point where the only thing, absolutely the only thing, it has going for it is that when allowing arbitrary additions of unknown un-evidenced phenomena and entities, it cannot be entirely disproven.


http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=11146446#post11146446
 
How do you know by observation if something is "fair"?

Learned it by observing the behaviour of other human beings and other animals when I was growing up.

Seriously - how did you learn what is fair if it wasn't by observation?

(There is some evidence in the structure of the brain that we may have some hardwiring that helps us learn some behaviours but at the moment we can't be certain.)
 
Deciding whether something is fair is a cognitive process involving reasoning. There is no objective means of determining it. It is
entirely subjective. Consensus even where it is universal does not change this. As all arbitrary values are subjective by definition
 
Deciding whether something is fair is a cognitive process involving reasoning. There is no objective means of determining it. It is
entirely subjective. Consensus even where it is universal does not change this. As all arbitrary values are subjective by definition
Fair is an applied abstract concept not a physical thing. The effects of an applied concept can be observed as in “Seen to be fair” (e.g. - sharing something equally with others). Have you never observed love or hate, happiness or sadness?
 
Last edited:
“Science cannot explain consciousness - therefore we can claim consciousness is whatever magical, paranormal thing we want it to be”

Merely another version of “We don’t know - therefore goddidit”.
 
Last edited:
Posts discussing the thought experiment of destroying a planet and what happens to gravity thereafter have been moved to this thread
Posted By: Agatha
 
“Science cannot explain consciousness - therefore we can claim consciousness is whatever magical, paranormal thing we want it to be”

Merely another version of “We don’t know - therefore goddidit”.

Don't be modest, you do know. Why else would you dismiss any explanation but the one you arbitrarily associate with as magical nonsense?
 
Don't be modest, you do know. Why else would you dismiss any explanation but the one you arbitrarily associate with as magical nonsense?
All the evidence suggests that consciousness has a materialist explanation, even if we don't know what it is yet.

None of the evidence suggests that there is a non materialist explanation.

In fact, whenever science looks for an explanation, it always turns out to be materialism. It never turns out to be magic.
 
Of course they are observable - that's how I learnt how to label things "fair" or "will". I wasn't preprogrammed with the meaning of words "will" and "fair" when I was born, I learnt - by observation - what they meant.
That is how an animal learns not to do something. Human being reaches the concept of duty. He won’t do something even if he is not punished. The moral imperative is independent of learning by punishment and even particular observation: You can't see that to kill is bad. It is understood and felt.

Once again you confuse the reasons why we do something with the duty to do it. Even if I have been taught to kill, I can still believe it is my duty not to kill. On what grounds?
 
All the evidence suggests that consciousness has a materialist explanation, even if we don't know what it is yet.
None of the evidence suggests that there is a non materialist explanation.

In fact, whenever science looks for an explanation, it always turns out to be materialism. It never turns out to be magic.


Actually we do "know" what consciousness is (1). It's an effect, or set of various effects all occurring together, that is produced by the normal chemical and electro-chemical functioning of an organ that we call the "brain" ... and it happens because the brain is rapidly and continuously exchanging "information" back-&-forth with sensory cells in the eyes, ears, skin, etc. (by "information" we just mean tiny electrical changes and various chemical reactions).

So there is no big mystery about that.

Really the only reason that consciousness seem strange to people, is that that like many explanations that we now have from science, it's not intuitively obvious that an effect like consciousness/awareness/intelligence would always arise in all living things that are sufficient highly evolved over billions of years to form very complex structures like the human eye and the human brain (it does not need to be a "human" eye and brain of course ... all mammals have a similar if less highly evolved/advanced capacity ... all other animals have it to some extent too, inc. extinct animals like dinosaurs ... even plants, and the earliest prehistoric relatives of modern plants, have sensory cells that react to heat & light etc. so as to result in physical changes that our ancient ancestors might have believed to be intentional "thinking" actions, e.g. plants turning their leaves daily to follow the angle of sunlight, or developing particular colours and scents that attract favourable insects ...

... of course today we would not regard plants as "intelligent" aware conscious creatures, and we might also say the same about (say) prehistoric fish ... but there is a huge area of countless lifeforms in-between what we regard as clearly not conscious/intelligent vs. the simplest examples of conscious/aware lifeforms.

In saying that, I am not disagreeing with you of course. On the contrary I'm just pointing out that the OP title was in any case wrong to say "science cannot explain consciousness, therefore...", because we certainly can explain consciousness. Of course some people (particularly theists and philosophers, and also many people who are suspicious of science) will not be satisfied with our current level of explanation, and they will say it leaves too many questions unanswered. But that's only because this is a subject which (a) does not normally attract high-level science (such as physics, maths, chemistry, or even biology), (b) its a subject heavily tainted by historic interest from theists and ancient philosophers (which is a not a set of arguments that modern physicists and chemists want to waste their time on), and (c) it's still a relatively young subject area as far as effective modern methods of testing are concerned (such as f-MRI), because older cruder methods from centuries past, would have involved subjecting patients/subjects to the risk of very serious brain injury and/or death.

But ... we do know what consciousness is we can explain what consciousness is. The actual complaint from the unscientific crowd, is merely that we do not yet have as much incontrovertible explanation as they would like ... but it's an active area of research that is progressing (like almost everything else in human understanding/education).



1. If by "know" people are insisting on a certainty, then they are insisting upon the physically impossible. But we do have a good scientific explanation for what consciousness is.
 
That is how an animal learns not to do something. Human being reaches the concept of duty. He won’t do something even if he is not punished. The moral imperative is independent of learning by punishment and even particular observation: You can't see that to kill is bad. It is understood and felt.

Once again you confuse the reasons why we do something with the duty to do it. Even if I have been taught to kill, I can still believe it is my duty not to kill. On what grounds?
You've missed my point. I wasn't taught about fairness via punishment (although that can be part of it) I learnt what was fair by observing my fellow humans and myself.
 
You've missed my point. I wasn't taught about fairness via punishment (although that can be part of it) I learnt what was fair by observing my fellow humans and myself.

Just to clarify. You learnt what the humans you observed considered to be fair and so developed your notion of fairness.

What David Mo meant by "non-observational concepts" is not that you cannot observe someone acting in a way that people would generally consider to be fair or unfair, but that you cannot observe "fair" and pin it down.
IOW you cannot observe an act and declare it fair or unfair without making a judgement call, you cannot do it and be objective.
 

Back
Top Bottom