Science and the Seance

[Nucular]

I didn't see the program, but I wonder...

did they comment on the curious fact that most of the classic seance phenomenea seems to have gone the way of the dodo bird? Levitating trumpets, spirit raps, ectoplasm... once all the rage, now rarer than hen's teeth.

Were any logical conclusions drawn along these lines?

Sure, stick with the "open-minded" notion that it was real back a century ago... but then ask yourself, "Wha happa'?"

Occasionally they observed that some of the things sort of 'peaked' a hundred years ago, but no, no logical conclusions of any sort were drawn along these lines. Not even a recounting of the time when the lights went on during one of Colin Fry's seances, revealing him stood on a chair dangling the glow-in-the-dark trumpet in the air...

Here's an article about the programme for anyone who's interested: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4185356.stm

ETA: from that article, at the end, it's observed that

Despite years of research, no scientist has proved seances were anything more than an elaborate con trick.

That wasn't observed in the documentary itself, IIRC, anywhere, just to clarify.

In fact ironically I think the most sceptical voice on there was Archie "point me at a camera and I'll say I believe anything" Roy, who noted that EVP folk are almost always "on the verge of a breakthrough", but still haven't quite delivered. He didn't really wonder why too strenuously though.

 

[Mercutio]

What evidence ‘it is all hoax’? This is also a skeptic belief system, a faith .. if not it must be a paranormal claim to know what really occured 100 years ago when not actually being present.

Which they retracted one year later, what does that conclusively mean? Take your pick
(a) The Fox Sisters were fully fraudulent and therefore all earlier and later spiritualistic phenomena are fraudulent?
(b) The Fox Sisters were partially fraudulent
(c) The Fox Sisters became alcoholic willing to do anything for money
(d) The Fox Sisters were under pressure from Christian relatives to condemn spiritualism or face Christian damnation

Good point....erm...except...When Maggie (not "they", although Katy had come to agree) appeared on the stage of the New York Academy of Music, she did not merely confess. She demonstrated. She showed how she and her sisters had made the noises; she demonstrated it to observers: "Three doctors knelt down, took hold of Mrs. Kane's [Margaret's] big toe and assumed a grave air..." They heard the "rapping", and so did the audience: "There was dead silence. Everybody in the great audience knew that they were looking at the woman who is principally responsible for Spiritualism, its founder, hight priestess and demonstrator"....Maggie stood motionless (she had demonstrated that the raps were produced by moving the joints of her foot without visibly moving her foot at all) and produced noises which were heard about the auditorium..."Mrs. Kane became excited. She clapped her hands, danced about and cried: 'It's a fraud! Spiritualism is a fraud from beginning to end! There's no truth in it!"

The New York Herald reported the evening thusly (IOW, all quotes are from the New York Herald, Oct. 22, 1888, p. 5). Do you have a different source?

Does her recanting of her confession somehow wipe out the memory of her having demonstrated her technique? How convenient...

 

[sophia8]

In fact ironically I think the most sceptical voice on there was Archie "point me at a camera and I'll say I believe anything" Roy, who noted that EVP folk are almost always "on the verge of a breakthrough", but still haven't quite delivered. He didn't really wonder why too strenuously though.

Too true - thirty years ago, when I was a devout Spiritualist, I belonged to a group that was trying to transmit plans from scientists "on the other side" who were developing some sort of electronic gadget for the livng and the dead to communicate with each other - not EVP, but a proper telephone-like machine. I left after a few months - they weren't getting anywhere. For years after, I kept hearing odd bits of news about them - they were still trying to get those plans through, but constantly kept getting stopped by something or other. For all I know, they're probably still at it....
(Which has suddenly made me wonder - since there are undoubtedly many computer geeks now "on the other side", why aren't they transmitting programming code?)

 

[Open Mind]

Mercutio, I wasn’t planning on defending the Fox Sisters to any degree nor even 'Spiritualism' the label …. My point is spiritualist like phenomena did not begin with the Fox Sisters, they are irrelevant other than being catalysts to increased public interest and a move away from Chrisitian opinion viewing it as witchcraft ...... and so is the label ‘spiritualism’ or ‘modern spiritualism’ or whatever people wish to call it …… the real questions are whether spiritualist like phenomena or mediumship exists, whether the ‘dead’ ever make contact, etc.

I'm not a spritiualist or religious but I will tell the other side of the story (since few spiritualists do) as it isn't quite as simple as some skeptics attitude 'they confessed - conclusive proof - Spiritualism is based on only fraud'

Good point....erm...except...When Maggie (not "they", although Katy had come to agree)

I don’t see the problem with ‘they’ ….. both confessed … Margaret 27th May 1888 and Kate in 10th October 1888 but not for long, Kate retracted her statement a few weeks afterwards and Margaret also did so in 1889 .

By this point both Margaret and Kate were in poverty and alcoholic for years, drinking heavily since 1855 (30 years)

As well as being alcoholic Margaret when in poverty was offered sums of money to confess and had previously converted to Roman Catholicism (that held the view that trying to contact the dead was a serious sin - Margaret’s late husband opposed Spiritualism for the same reason) . However one year later in 1889, she changed her mind and retracted her confession saying she was under the pressure of ‘treacherous horde of people who held out promises of wealth and happiness in return for an attack on Spiritualism, and whose hopeful utterances were so deceitful …

If we assume for a moment her retraction is truthful, I think we have to assume this is a reference to many Christians who had been trying to discredit Spiritualism as it became very popular. Would some Christians resort to such corrupt means? I doubt such alarmed Christians of that period would view any opposition to Spiritualism as corrupt and more a case of opposing evil as spiritualism was emerging into a popular belief and religion. The Fox Sisters story did little not to alarm Christians even involving references to ‘Mr Splitfoot’ which would just have reaffirmed to them it was the work of Mr Cloven Hoof - the devil ….. they perhaps felt any method was justified to stop the rise of Spiritualism and experimentation in what they believed was witchcraft.

As early as 1851 Margaret Fox was falsely accused of confessing to fraud. This supposed confession by Margaret involved a non existent servant girl producing raps, referring to a séance which didn’t take place in the claimed premises and at the actual location of the séance, Margaret was not even present that day. A claim of fraud is not proof of fraud.

Does her recanting of her confession somehow wipe out the memory of her having demonstrated her technique? How convenient...

Your point of course is valid, assuming the journalist account is accurate and she genuinely did produce toe joint raps matching the phenomena (note: decades earlier newpaper reports also claimed fraud during the original hauntings without actual evidence) …. again if we trust Margarets retraction saying about confession her 'utterances had no foundation in fact' there is possiblity (even if unlikely) these public debunk raps were set up / faked to discredit or halt spiritualistic belief ..…despite much earlier claims raps could be made by feet or joints, 40 years past without conclusive proof to researchers aware of such a possibility, I would love to hear someone crack their toe joints in a manner so that it sounds like it is coming from a wall, it may well be convincingly possible

The story of Margaret Fox ends in 1893 on her death bed producing raps in response to her questions, a present Dr Mellen claims she hears loud raps coming from the ceiling, walls and floor, while also claiming Fox was dying unable to move hands or feet (on an mattress?) If an accurate account, it could not have been her sisters on nursing premises playing one last trick through a wall, they both died before Margaret.

I agree that due to their confession, even if retracted, any paranormal claim surrounding the Fox Sisters is of no evidential value today. Whatever the truth their lifestory remains disturbing with either early poltergeist phenomena being real or young girls hoaxing and scaring their parents out of their home and continuing for 50 years, even after a confession and retraction.

 

[Open Mind]

I am open to be persuaded.

Fair enough. As long as sceptics keep an open mind during or prior to trials on paranormal I have no complaints.

This leads me to think you have a limited knowledge of cold reading. Please explain what is possible through cold reading and what is impossible through cold reading.

Probably due to my careless wording, when I said ‘beyond cold reading’ I was not referring to a test of cold reading, I was referring specifically to the Professor A. Roy trial which by design ruled out the mediums cold reading altogether.

With regard to what is actually possible by cold reading, no one really knows, including the cold readers, as it has never been properly tested in direct comparison to random guessing, let alone mediumship … therefore the common skeptic desire to educate the public that cold reading is the correct explanation of mediumship currently has no scientific backing whatsoever! It also seems many ‘cold reading’ mentalists often resort to warm/hot reading in TV performances etc. as appearing unimpressive is risky to reputations … so any proper trial needs to be ultra careful to rule out cheating by either magicians or psychics involved.

‘What is not possible through cold reading’? For example I would say information such as address with surname from a dead next-door neighbour is beyond cold reading. And indeed I once received such a message from a medium, this is obviously far beyond cold reading (picking up sensory clues from a simple yes or no reply), whether it was some elaborate hot reading obviously needs to be considered, I doubt it was hot reading but I do understand why skeptics will assume otherwise as such a degree of accuracy today is very rare.

 

[Open Mind]

I didn't see the program, but I wonder...

did they comment on the curious fact that most of the classic seance phenomenea seems to have gone the way of the dodo bird? Levitating trumpets, spirit raps, ectoplasm... once all the rage, now rarer than hen's teeth.

Were any logical conclusions drawn along these lines?

Sure, stick with the "open-minded" notion that it was real back a century ago... but then ask yourself, "Wha happa'?"

Whereas I am of the opinion mental psychic phenomena exists, I have little opinion on whether physical psychic phenomena exists or not but let me defend the possibility.

The reports are still around today but more rare than ever as you point out. If we assume some of the earlier phenomena was genuine, some obviously was fraudulent, thereby possibly making a rare phenomena appear more common?

There are of course major differences between Victorian and present times in lifestyle and environment.

No TV or Radio, few with electricity, telephones or electric lighting, no artificial electromagnetic radiation interference? Some also speculate on a natural shift in Schumann Resonance of the earth.

There could be a much simpler reason though, people are perhaps too distracted and busy to sit every night in a séance circle trying to develop psychic ability, back then they had nothing else to do by the dim light of the quiet fireside. I have spoken to lot of modern mediums in my investigations, few sit trying to develop psychic abilities for more than hour a week (such a low effort level would totally fail in most endeavours) … One of the most impressive mediums I came across was the late Gordon Higgingson, he sat with his mother in circle (seance), nearly every night for a period of many years.

Another factor worth considering is belief. Frankly more people in victorian times believed in a paranormal than today. That was partly due to religions but more than that, go and sit in a very dim light room by yourself for a while and you might find your belief level goes up slightly partially due to the imagination running wild Could psychic phenomena conform to the belief level of the experimenters? Well I think some would argue that a sheep/goat effect in parapsychology suggests this possibility. Some suggest a successful demonstration of phenomena are impeded or weaker amongst disbelievers. Some suggest a higher level of collective disbelief impedes everything as a whole as psychic phenomena pathways are via a collective unconscious. If there is any truth in these concepts, it may be possible to prove the paranormal to individuals amongst small groups of believers? Would it more readily fail if trying to convince the skeptical world of science?

All of this of course will sound like excuses …… which would be a fair criticism, so |I will accept that point before you make it