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science and philosophy

Correa Neto said:
Epepke, Eleatic Stranger, Monkboon, H'ethetheth et alii (thanks programmers for cut-and-paste):

Please correct me if I´m wrong, but if, as epepke wrote, when building a philosophy one "start from assumptions or basic principles, assign truth values to them, and build up using some forms of logic", wouldn´t it be the correct next step to test it against avaliable information, that usually comes from science?

Is this is so, I guess it would be correct to state that science is a base to a philosophy (at least nowdays). On the other hand, consider a philosophy that does not do so, remaining untested. Wouldn´t it have a lot of chances to be just an exercise of logic (even a fascinating one), but quite possibly with little actual use?

Or perhaps it would be better say that scientific methodology can (i would tend to say must) be used as a working tool to build a solid philosophy?
If you build a philosophy like epepke suggested, starting from basic principles that are agreed upon to be true, then sometimes you will end up with interesting stuff that is useful to understanding the universe. Maybe you create some fresh perspective, a way to look at things that is new and very instructive. I think at this time, M-theory would be a good example.
But I think that philosophy, as far as finding 'truth' about the universe is concerned, can only be applied to guide scientific research to discover the supposed order in the universe.
Science provides new territories for philosophers to explore. At the edges of knowledge the philosophers can ponder the possible directions to explore.

Science is a basis for philosophy, but for philosophy in a narrow sense, namely philosophy pertaining to the advance of scientific knowledge. In my opinion, this iterative process to advance science is the only useful application of philosophy, save for entertainment perhaps. Lifegazer would be an exponent of the latter.

Long story short: I think I agree with you. :D
 
I'm not sure what is meant by 'philosophy', so I'm not sure how to answer the original question.

I would argue this: One of the really foundational philosophical questions is the relationship between the subjective and the objective: the subjective being reality as I experience it and the objective being what reality actually is.

Being a skeptic (in the classical sense), I would say that there is no proof of relationship between the two. We are measuring with uncalibratable instruments. Being, also, a practicle person, I assume that there is ome relationship between the two.

Science, I would argue, begins with the assumption that our experience of reality conforms to reality itself. There is, of course, no point in following the scientific method if my observations can tell me nothing about reality.

In that sense, I would say that science flows out of a particular philosophy.

Finally, I would make a destinction between the scientific method and materialism. The scientific method deals with what is observable. Materialism asserts that only the observable is real. The difference is, I think, inadequately appreciated.
 
lifegazer said:
Why discard something when you don't know what it is?

My fault - I intended to write that I had discarded it without knowing what it was called. I was in a hurry.
 
lifegazer said:
Your first sentence is arguable, of course, especially as I think that I have such proof.

Would you care to share it with the rest of us? We certainly haven't seen it yet.
 
lifegazer said:
That's rubbish. Even the observation of your body is internal to awareness. So is the observation of "other people".
You just aren't grasping any of this.

Don't mistake disagreement for misunderstanding. I grasp what you tell us of your philosophy. I'm merely telling you it's bunk. My cup of vinegar is not a part of me. My observation of it is. Don't confuse the observation with the observed. It's the same mistake you have made from the beginning. It presumes, rather than confirms, that reality is an illusion, which you have yet to prove.
 
The question in the poll was poorly worded. Science isn't a basis for a philosophy. It is based on a philosophy. This philosophy (naturalism) includes certain basic assumptions that can't actually be proven; such as, for instance, the assumption that the universe actually exists outside of our own minds and the assumption that we can actually learn something about this external universe based on our observations of it.

It is these basic assumptions that Lifegazer seems to have a problem with. What he fails to understand is that all philosophies are based on certain unprovable assumption. The famous chestnut "I think, therefore I am" isn't really a proof of anything. It is a statement of an assumption. It might be more accurately stated as "I think that I think, therefore I think that I am." ultimately, the value of a philosophy can't be judged on the provability of it's fundamental assumptions (since they are all equally unprovable), but rather on it's usefulness. The assumptions of solipsism (Lifegazer's apparent preferred assumptions) lead to an intellectual dead end and are no more provable than those of naturalism. Naturalism, at least, provides us a means to better understand the universe as we perceive it.
 
Please correct me if I´m wrong, but if, as epepke wrote, when building a philosophy one "start from assumptions or basic principles, assign truth values to them, and build up using some forms of logic", wouldn´t it be the correct next step to test it against avaliable information, that usually comes from science?

Well, you're not wrong as such, but you're not exactly right either. The exact methodology of philosophy is as much a subject of philosophy as anything else in the discipline, in fact, and there are plenty of reasons to consider that construal to be a very iffy one. (For instance, what you've described sounds like a good way to do formal logic, but it's highly questionable when it comes to ethics.) Recourse to intuitions in various cases is an important part of philosophy, but it's also a highly dangerous one since intuitions are only, well, intuitions....

Is this is so, I guess it would be correct to state that science is a base to a philosophy (at least nowdays). On the other hand, consider a philosophy that does not do so, remaining untested....

While it's fair to say that any philosophic position that makes it impossible to do something that clearly we are doing has a distinct problem, that's really the only way in which we can speak of science being a basis for philosophy. After all, science must accept a variety of assumptions in order to do anything at all that we would accept as inquiry, and cannot return results that tell against those assumptions (imagine an experiment that falsified the (broadly construed) scientific method). These assumptions and methods, then, are valid subjects of philosophic inquiry. Furthermore, I should note, any scientific theory that fails on philosophic grounds (for instance, contains a contradiction or relies on a critical equivocation in order to return positive results, or that sort of thing) automatically fails as a scientific theory.

The famous chestnut "I think, therefore I am" isn't really a proof of anything. It is a statement of an assumption.

It isn't really either, honestly. "I think" is a statement that cannot be thought without being true, which means that - as doubting is considered a type of thinking - it's a statement that cannot be doubted (because doubting the statement "I am doubted" would be contradictory). Descartes doesn't start from "I think", rather he concludes that it's something he cannot sensibly doubt (he starts by coming up with a method that involves doubting anything he can doubt, and seeing what constitutes an undoubteable foundation). There are various problems with his method, certainly, but very few people have argued that one can doubt that one is capable of doubting.

Finally, in response to epepke, I think you're making a very odd statement when you say:
Anyway, science is robust in terms of ignorance or uncertainty, whereas most philosophy is rather fragile. A scientific chain of logic where one term is changed from 100% to 99%, or "infinite" versus "really, really big" can still work, while most philosophical positions fall apart if this is so.

Is it reasonable, do you think, to compare science-as-a-whole to any particular philosophic position? After all, any particular scientific hypothesis is pretty fragile - or at least ideally so for testing purposes. If you want to compare various theories which have to stand up to a barrage of experiments designed to falsify them (most of which, again ideally, do end up falsified) to a various philosophic arguments or theories which have to stand up to a barrage of other arguments designed to disprove them or at the very least provide substantial reason to consider them false (most of which do end up being rejected), then you're welcome to do that - but that wouldn't exactly give you as substantial a difference any more. I'm not sure why when it comes to science that feature is a positive feature and when applied to philosophy it's a negative one.

Also:
1) Observation that it works, as you mentioned.
2) The idea that the only real test of a hypothesis is observation or experiment
3) Feynman's characterization of science as a "satisfactory philosophy of ignorance"

However, there are a couple of problems. The first is that it is different from those things that are generally approved of by philosophers these days. 1 and 2 are likely to elicit a response of "empiricism is dead, you loser" or maybe "logical positivism is dead, you loser" or something like that.

I should note just from the get go that there are valid reasons to consider (1) and (2) problematic. A reason (1) might be considered problematic is that evaluating whether or not science "works" involves determining exactly what it means for science to "work" (does it mean converging on truth, or higher predictive power, for instance - and can one of those two strictly be said to imply the other?). Certain views of what it means to say that science works are overly naive, in fact, which shouldn't surprise anyone familliar with, say, the view that science reveals the natural law of the universe as put there by God and blah blah blah....

Secondly, (2) is downright false, because there are plenty of other real tests that we put on hypotheses. As noted above, any hypothesis that blatantly fails to pass philosophic muster is a bad one(try to devise an experiment that would falsify a logical contradiction). Also there are various principles involving parsimony that are not based on any observations as such and which serve as criteria on which to evaluate hypotheses.

Now, none of the things I've said above demonstrate anything wrong with science, but it is important to remember that it's very easy to take a naive view of things that can be quite misleading at times.
 
Yes of course it can because science in synomomous to "natural philosophy" The study of nature and the physical universe before the advent of modern science, period.

CDR
 
- This thread has been horribly spoiled already by insane/woo gobbeldygook, but I thought I'd mention one thing that seems interesting to me...

- Philosophy, historically, has advanced as science advances. Core epistemology aside (and we must brush it aside before the question becomes meaningful), we rule out philosophical hypotheses with scientific observation(s) all the time. The big philosophical questions nobody can anser right now, like "where did the universe come from", aren't going to simply answer themselves with deep application from a dedicated mind. Instead, they will rely upon empirical data we discover via science.

- Sure, I think science has enough in it to support a foundational philosophy, as long as we don't go overboard with it, and as long as we can demonstrate the fundamentals behind the scientific method (lifegazer isn't going to be running through any brick walls any time soon, for instance).
 

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