Except that she didn't say that it was for every single exchange. She asks men to read women's body language and to be more careful when they're in situations (like an elevator or dark street at night) where a woman is in a more vulnerable position. It's about a man approaching a woman he's never met before, not about meeting somebody at work or through friends. You may think that I'm projecting some of my own thoughts onto the article, but you're saying that she's applying the same thought process every time a man approaches a woman. She's not.
Yes, she is. She put it all by itself in a one sentence paragraph so you couldn't miss it:
So when you, a stranger, approach me, I have to ask myself: Will this man rape me?
The article never said this. You were in a public place with other people there. That's not approaching a woman in a dark alley. You didn't continue to pursue a woman who made it clear that she didn't want to converse with you.
When you approach me in public, you are Schrödinger’s Rapist.
When you approach me, I will begin to evaluate the possibility you will do me harm.
Look around. Are you in a dark alley? Then probably you ought not approach a woman and try to strike up a conversation. The same applies if you are alone with a woman in most public places.
Except the article doesn't say that. She never says that a man should never ever ever speak to a woman he doesn't know. She asks you to be cognizant of the woman's body language upon approaching her, and her subsequent body language and verbal cues if you do initiate a conversation.
So if you speak to a woman who is otherwise occupied, you’re sending a subtle message. It is that your desire to interact trumps her right to be left alone.
Who isn't otherwise occupied in this world? We're always occupied, especially if you consider "looking out the window" as being occupied, the example keep putting up.
No. She said that if the woman smiles at you and sits with an open posture, it's okay to say hi.
The word "smile" appears once. It appears in the context of saying Hi to a cute girl who is looking out the window. She says not to expect a smile because
"You are a threat, remember? You are Schrödinger’s Rapist." She's warning me off from even making the greeting.
If she's sitting toward the window or with headphones on, and doesn't make any acknowledgement that you're taking the seat beside her, then it's probably a good idea to amuse yourself during your bus ride.
(emphasis mine)
An innocent but poor choice of words in this thread.
She does say that
if you speak and get some positive feedback, that's a green light. If you read it charitably, she
might be giving tacit approval to initiating a conversation. Only her advice is not good advice if you think about it. Some people are just not comfortable rejecting other people in social situations. They feel like they have to be polite and smile. Lots of people take advantage of this all the time. Sales people do it. Panhandlers do it. And Ted Bundy style rapists do it.
And why do you have a problem with that? If a woman is reading a book and doesn't look up to acknowledge you, why do you have to initiate a conversation with her?
Do you define a friendly greeting as initiating a conversation? If so, then I do it when (say) finding myself through circumstances being in her what would normally be her personal space because I think that's the proper course of action. It says, "I acknowledge that you may be a uncomfortable as me, but I am showing that I am not a threat by acknowledging you as a fellow human being and offering a friendly gesture of greeting."
It's interesting how most women and lot of men don't get this. Do you ever see men nod at each other in passing? Total strangers do it because it's a way of showing respect. Stated another way, failing to acknowledge someone can be taken as a sign of disrespect. I've seen interviews with rough and ready, inner-city young men talk about this. It really bothers them when somebody walks by without even looking at them. "It's not like we're not even there. Like we're not even worthy of being looked at. Like we're some
thing to be avoided."
Social interaction is complex like that. There's no "right" way to do it all the time.
I never said you were a racist. What I pointed out is that if we substituted race for men, your comments would be taken very differently. Extremely differently. I think that should give you pause.
Yes, most of my conversations with strange [black] men are innocuous, but the few bad apples do spoil things when it comes to me wanting to make small talk with complete strangers [black men]. Why is this such a huge deal?
When you can understand why it would be a "big deal" if you said that about black men, you can understand why it might be a big deal about men in general. If I'm wrong, please explain to me how the thought process is any different. I'm willing to listen.
So, I don't like talking to strangers, so what? Is it really any skin off your nose?
You can do whatever you want. You brought yourself into the conversation by relating your personal experiences. If you're going to take it personally, then discuss things in the abstract. The reality is that I don't know you my opinion of what you do should mean nothing to you. And considering that I know little else about you besides what you've written, I haven't formed any opinions of you as a person. I don't view you as Schrodinger's Misandrist. That would be shallow and uncritical of me.
It's funny, though, that I've never had a woman ask me to blow her after I talked about the weather. This has happened with men at least a half dozen times.
I've never had a man brush his crotch up against me, but I've had literally a couple of dozen women intentionally rub their breasts and/or buttocks against me.
I don't care what their skin color is or even how old they are.
I know. The distinguishing characteristic is the penis. So the actions of six men out of a few billion on the planet have the strongest influence. At least the racists can point to things like how the incarceration rate for black people is so much higher than for whites.
I've said before that I really like men, but that doesn't mean I should trust every strange man who sits next to me on a bus and initiates conversation.
Good thing I never said you should trust them.
If he's bigger and stronger than me, I'm going to be a little wary. It's not like I live my life in a bubble, but I do try to insulate myself from strangers in certain situations, depending on how I'm feeling that day. Some days I just don't want a hassle, even if the chance of it happening is small.
That's fine by me, not that it matters. Personally, I think the guy who's gonna ask for a blow job is going to do it regardless. Then again, some guys get a little pissed when women refuse to acknowledge their presence. If you're going to treat every man you meet as Schrodinger's Rapist, it could be a self-fulfilling prophecy. I'm not excusing anybody for saying such a rude thing, but if your goal is to avoid comments like that, I'm not convinced you're taking the best approach.
Seriously, in life if people treat you like you're an *******, there's a tendency to just act like one. It doesn't make it right, but it's real. Childish, yes, but real. I don't know the circumstances of your situations, but I don't think it's far fetched to thing that the reaction might be one of frustration. "You think I'm scum? Fine. I'll show you scum. It's not like I'll ever see you again."
Do women on the bus routinely ask you what kind of car you have? Does a simple conversation about the weather or local sports turn into her asking you to buy her gifts?
On a bus? I can't say. In a bar? Yep.
I've had several seemingly innocent conversations with strange men that turned into requests for sexual favors. I would bet that most women could tell you similar stories. Do you understand why I could be a little nervous when that happens and that I have a reason to be wary that another unknown man may act in the same manner?
I can understand it, but I don't have to agree with your level of response. It seems, however, that what you're telling me is that when you send signals to a man that you want to converse with him and have a pleasant conversation, he says something vulgar. Okay.
So, other than "has a penis" what observations have you made that might enable you to avoid those situations?
That is critical thinking.
I know it's a rare occurence. But it's exceedingly unpleasant when it happens. There is absolutely no payoff for me having a conversation with a stranger.
So, you've never read "How We Met" stories? There's a lot of great people in the world, and 99.9999999% of them are strangers.
Chance of something really negative happening? Less than 1%. Chance of something really positive happening? Also less than 1%.
Define really negative.
And sometimes the reason a woman doesn't want to say "Hi" is because she doesn't know if the guy is going to get all creepy on her. She doesn't know him, and she doesn't owe him the pleasure of her company. If she doesn't want to talk to you, and makes it clear with her body language, why in the world would you pursue her?
Who said I wanted to pursue her? I'm not pursuing anyone. I like to talk to people. If they don't want to talk, that's fine with me. But I will offer that it kind of sucks when somebody doesn't want to talk to you because you are Schrodinger's Rapist.
Women don't see the other side of the coin. They don't get treated this way by men, so they don't know what it feels like. You want us to understand that an attempt at conversation might be viewed as a potential threat of harm. Fine. Have you ever thought that maybe men want women to think about how it feels to be a helluva nice guy in a loving relationship just wanting to have a little chat be viewed as a rapist because some ******* asked you to give him a blow job six months ago?
It's a two-way street.
Thank you. I don't find conversations with strangers pleasant in any circumstance. If you like having conversations with strangers, then have them with like-minded strangers. It's no hardship for you to avoid strangers who are avoiding you. The article is asking you to avoid making contact with strange people are clearly trying to avoid it.
We obviously disagree on what the article says.
It's your right to consider it silly. I don't have a problem with that. I do wish that more men could understand that women have reason to view the world with a different perspective than men. It's nothing to do with racism. I'm more at risk due to my size, and between the two of us, I'm the only one at risk of an unwanted pregnancy via rape.
I do wish more women could understand that it sucks to be considered Schrodinger's Rapist and being told "Don't rape." I do wish more women could understand that is sucks to be considered the gender that should do most of the initiating yet be told that our approaches are always considered in the context of harm.
I do wish more women could understand that it sucks watching a handsome man with a disarming smile wearing an expensive suit get all the "green light" signals from a woman who just moments before wouldn't even look at us, the ordinary looking guys in jeans and a clean shirt. It happens. All the time it happens. Sometimes we "know" that guy. He's a philanderer who disrespects and mistreats women.
Believe it or not, we guys are much better at pegging the type of men you want to avoid.
No. The only men who are going to talk to me would be the ones who correctly read my signals that I'm open to talking to them, along with a handful of perverts. Why is it so hard to not talk to women who aren't in the mood to talk to strangers? From my experience, some men think it's a deliberate challenge to make them work a little harder at charming you. It's not.
Why do you need to force this into a men vs women thing? Anybody who pursues a conversation with someone who doesn't want it is being rude. We don't need Schrodinger's Rapist to make that point.
