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Schrodinger's Rapist: When is uncritical thought ok?

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Hmmm, might not be the best article I've ever seen on how "women" think. If this is how "women" think there may be a slight problem :)

Yep, slight problems. You know, like the fact that one in 6 women get raped.

And while we are on the subject, you never answered my question. Do you think the article is advice to women on how to avoid rape?
 
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How on earth would you know whether any of them are rapists or not? Do you think all rapists tell their mates about it?

Sexually aggressive men are slower to stop the tape on a date rape scenario than non sexually aggressive men especially when alcohol is involved in the scenario.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2372/is_4_35/ai_53390351/pg_2/?tag=content;col1

All no, but men talk. If they're spilling the beans to surveys like Tranewreck cited I'm fairly confident they spill the beans over beers with a friend.

Why do you think men hide it like women do?
 
Yep, slight problems. You know, like the fact that one in 6 women get raped.

And while we are on the subject, you never answered my question. Do you think the article is advice to women on how to avoid rape?

No it's estimated 1 in 6 women get sexually assaulted in their lifetime.
 
All no, but men talk. If they're spilling the beans to surveys like Tranewreck cited I'm fairly confident they spill the beans over beers with a friend.

Why do you think men hide it like women do?

What do you mean "like women do"? I'm confused.

If its true that rapists give away their crimes when chatting with their mates, then there must be at least a few men on this forum who will know that someone they know is a rapist. After all, a lot of women here know someone who has been raped or seriously sexually asaulted. What do you think? Think there is any man here who has heard their friend "talking" about raping a woman? Surely they must have if "men talk".
 
A few days ago, I would have said that men hide the fact that they are rapists because it is illegal and because it goes against the societal norm.

And some of them may not even consider what they have done to be rape - just their usual sexually aggressive behaviour.
 
Actually, as I was saying, we do have some statistics, and a link has been posted at least twice. Here's a third time, maybe this time we'll actually read it: http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/sexist/2009/11/12/rapists-who-dont-think-theyre-rapists/

120 in 1882 men self-identified as rapists in that survey. Do you understand? One in 1882/120, or 1 in 15.7 men is a self-assessed rapist.

Hans, maybe I'm misunderstanding you here, but from my reading, none of the college students in that survey "self identified as rapists", because the word rape was deliberately and specifically avoided in the survey.


Indeed that seems to be the point of the article. These people did not consider themselves to be rapists.

That 120 of 1882 college students self identified as guys I'd like to kick in the head is, I agree, deeply disturbing.

Frankly, I'm astonished that even one answered "yes" to any of these questions, as doing so would be self incrimination- and could have led to criminal proceedings. That leads me to suspect they were guaranteed anonymity, which in turn makes me wonder how many of the responses were pure BS. Why would college students voluntarily take part in such a survey? Were they paid? Did they have an attitude towards the people carrying out the survey?
This just doesn't seem to me to make much sense.


ETA- Prof. I'm 55. I work in a virtually all male industry. Yes, men talk about women. A lot. Mostly they talk about what women say and do that they (men) find funny or incomprehensible.
I have never, not even once, known a man to admit to sexual assault, or even to hint at it. Never. I can't , therefore, say what the reaction would be if one did, but I suspect it would be bloody.

The survey Hans links to above therefore strikes me as simply unbelievable. Maybe college students are different from my day, but if anyone in my university class had admitted to (far less boasted of) assaulting a woman, I doubt he would have walked for some time afterward. While it's clear that some men are indeed a danger to women, what the article in the OP completely fails to mention is that the majority of men are not and would be both horrified and deeply insulted to be considered as such.
 
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Oh will you please try and make sense? This doesn't make any sense.

If the goal is to write things that make sense to you, no one is ever going to accomplish that.

Dude read the article, her question is quite clear:

"So when you, a stranger, approach me, I have to ask myself: Will this man rape me?"

Sigh. You have proven time and time again that focusing on one sentence and ignoring the point being made is a terrible way to evaluate an article.

I'm not going to keep saying this, it's a waste of time.

But how does she determine if they will, piss poor statistics.

"I bet you don’t think you know any rapists, but consider the sheer number of rapes that must occur"

Yes, let's. Approximately 300 000 rapes last year, 150 000 000 men, or 0.2% of men last year were rapists. If 60% go unreported, approximately 0.45% men last year were rapists.

But no let's try to work out how many rapists there are based on 1 in 6 women are sexually assaulted in their lifetime.

And you don't see the problem? :boggled:

Forget this dumb game. I gave you a citation to a solid study that had 1 in 20 men self-identifying as rapists. Once again, the article in the OP was granting an absurdly conservative position. When the actual stats are examined, she would have more to worry about.

Your continued focus on a rough estimate when better numbers are available is just infantile.
 
WTF? You can't average a probability over 1 event. This is the dumbest thing you've written yet. This discussion is indeed a train wreck, thanks for the laugh.

What the hell are you talking about?

The numbers aren't taken from meeting random people on a bus, they're applied to that event.

To the extent that I can even make sense out of the tangled web of insanity that is your thinking, you are 180 degrees off.
 
Is there any human interaction that is as simple as that? We all judge a situation by past experience, non-verbal clues, subtle power-plays and presentation.

If a person is pressing the issue in a conversation, there will quiet chimes of warning. The longer it continues or the more persistent it becomes, the louder that warning gets. It happens regardless of the gender. With women being approached by a strange man, there are sexual undertones to conversation and the warning.

No. That's why I don't think "disrespecting choices" can be applied to anything outside the specific situation. If there's always "sexual undertones" to any male/female interaction I'm not sure what modification can honestly be asked of men.
 
What do you mean "like women do"? I'm confused.

60-80% (depending on your source, I've seen both now) go unreported. While it doesn't say if it's on males or females, I assume that the same proportion of unreported cased is the same as reported so about 99% of the unreported cases are from (or not from) women.

For whatever reasons these incidents aren't reported and remain "hidden" from the authorities.

If its true that rapists give away their crimes when chatting with their mates, then there must be at least a few men on this forum who will know that someone they know is a rapist. After all, a lot of women here know someone who has been raped or seriously sexually asaulted. What do you think? Think there is any man here who has heard their friend "talking" about raping a woman? Surely they must have if "men talk".

I don't know a single male that been investigated, charged with or convicted of sexual assault. I think a lot of it happens in high school and college where it's a combination of immaturity, experimentation with drugs, hormones etc. so a lot of it goes unreported by the women because they just aren't sure what exactly happened and men perhaps just didn't know any better and didn't realize that "No means no".

I'm not sure about the rest of assaults. My old roommate, a female, used to joke about an "Upstairs sneaky uncle". (sweet girl, different sense of humour). A majority of people had to have it explained to them, but a surprising number of women (and a few men) understood right away.

So I think there are a lot of predators, older men that prey on young girls and boys, and I think the stats prove this. These men would not disclose what they are doing to just anyone, for obvious reasons.

That's what brings me right back to my original observation about this article. I honestly don't think women 25-35, the ones the author seems to be talking about, are in that high a risk category for rape. A guy coming up to you at the gym, or on a bus, or in a park don't have that much potential of becoming a rapist.

But nobody seems like they want to talk about the actual probability of meeting a rapist on the bus, or in a gym or at work. Obviously, a private investigator from NY says it's 1 in 60, well then it must be. :rolleyes:
 
But nobody seems like they want to talk about the actual probability of meeting a rapist on the bus, or in a gym or at work. Obviously, a private investigator from NY says it's 1 in 60, well then it must be. :rolleyes:

And again I ask, do you think the article is advice to women on how to avoid rape?

And while we're on the subject of questions you don't answer, when can I let my guard down? When am I, as a woman, 100% sure that I am safe from rape?
 
60-80% (depending on your source, I've seen both now) go unreported. While it doesn't say if it's on males or females, I assume that the same proportion of unreported cased is the same as reported so about 99% of the unreported cases are from (or not from) women.

For whatever reasons these incidents aren't reported and remain "hidden" from the authorities.

But that is unreported to the police - we were talking about mentioning it to friends. A lot more women do that. I know because friends have told me about sexual assaults that they haven't reported.


I don't know a single male that been investigated, charged with or convicted of sexual assault. I think a lot of it happens in high school and college where it's a combination of immaturity, experimentation with drugs, hormones etc. so a lot of it goes unreported by the women because they just aren't sure what exactly happened and men perhaps just didn't know any better and didn't realize that "No means no".

Thats just not true. Whilst the highest age category for rape in adults is the 16-19 year old group, there are still significant numbers in the other age groups. And the change in numbers is probably at least partially due to the changes in numbers of women who are single, which changes the opportunities for date rape. So if you are still single in your twenties or early thirties you are still very much at risk.
 
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If an adult woman wants to take the NVAWS data to perform risk analysis, here's some data to consider:

Over half the women were raped before age 18. Those raped as minors were twice as likely to be raped as adults. So, of the women over the age of 18 and having never been raped before, about 8.5% will be raped (1 in ~12).

Of all the adult victims, the perpetrator was:
Intimate Partner: 62%
Relative Other Than Spouse: 9%
Acquaintance: 21%
Stranger: 19%
(totals over 100% because of multiple perpetrators)

Unfortunately, the study didn't break down intimate partner into spouse, live-in partner, and date/boyfriend (current/former) for the adult category. They broke it down for all victims (includes minors), and for minors, 87% were raped by a relative other than spouse.

So, if we do some math we find the following odds for an adult woman who was not raped as a minor:

Intimate Partner: 1 in 19
Acquaintance: 1 in 56
Spouse: 1 in 58 (I assumed that the number of minors with spouses was small enough to ignore, and spouses are included in the Intimate Partner number)
Stranger: 1 in 62
Relative other than spouse: 1 in 130

This next part is where it gets tricky because we don't really have any data for the number of intimate partners, relatives, acquaintances and strangers a person will have/meet. I would say it's reasonable to consider intimate partners to be the smallest group. The number acquaintances one has I would say dwarfs intimate partners and the number of strangers one encounters dwarfs the number of acquaintances.

My point about the number of people encountered is this: Suppose a woman in her lifetime goes on dates with 25 different men (I pulled this number out of my ass, but it seems to be reasonable). These 25 men by far pose the greatest risk to her, yet it seems to me this is the group of men that women are the least concerned about. By contrast a woman encounters countless strangers in her lifetime, and they represent the least amount of risk outside of relatives. This, it seems, is the group women are most concerned about.

Stated another way, she's much more likely to be raped by one of the 25 men she dates than the thousands of stranger whom she encounters in her lifetime. Of course, an intimate partner starts out as a stranger and most likely passes through the acquaintance stage.

Of all the adult rapes, about 67% of the perpetrators were using drugs/alcohol at the time. About 20% of the victims were using drugs/alcohol at the time. There is no data indicating when both were using drugs/alcohol at the time. Interestingly, the study Hans referenced about self-described male rapists indicated that 70% of the men who admitted rape did so on intoxicated women. It's apples and oranges to a degree since this was a study of college men, but I offer it for the purposes of risk assessment.

About 32% reported being threatened with harm to themselves or someone close to them. About 43% reported feeling threatened with harm to themselves or someone close to them. Stated another way about 57% of the rapes didn't involve any threat of additional physical harm. About 32% reported physical injury, which means 68% did not. Of those who did get injured, about 35% were serious injuries and 75% were minor cuts, scratches, bruises (totals over 100% because of multiple injuries).

We can only sort of put this all together because the data is not granular enough, but in general it seems that women who are raped are most likely to be raped by the small group of men with whom they have relationships and those rapes don't match the "traditional stereotype" some perceive of a violent physical confrontation. Maybe we can coin a new term and call them stealth rapes.

About 82% of rape victims did not report it to police. Of those, 18% considered it a "minor incident; not a crime or police matter," which works out to be 1 in 100 women being raped in their adult lifetime and judging it that way. Another 13% said they didn't report it, "Police could not do anything," which is somewhat vague. Not included in those percentages are the 22% who refused to answer or said, "I don't know." Can't do much beyond speculating with those numbers. About 22% did not report it because they feared the rapist.

Finally, for those who were raped by intimate partners, about 88% of the rapes happened during the relationship. About 6% happened only after the relationship. About 25% happened both during and after the relationship.

To me this seems to indicate that women should be most concerned about those with whom they date or otherwise have relationships. A woman is about as likely be raped by her spouse as she is a stranger.
 
Thats just not true. Whilst the highest age category for rape in adults is the 16-19 year old group, there are still significant numbers in the other age groups. And the change in numbers is probably at least partially due to the changes in numbers of women who are single, which changes the opportunities for date rape. So if you are still single in your twenties or early thirties you are still very much at risk.

I don't know where you're pulling your data from, but the NVAWS breaks it down. The 12 to 17 age group is by far the most at risk:

Ages 0-11: 3.6%
Ages 12-17: 6.3%
Ages 18 and over: 9.6%

It's hard to get a firm number on "date rape" in part because of the vague definition but mostly because the NVAWS did not break down adult rapes between spouses, dates, and live-in partners. However, they did break it down for all rapes including minors.

Spouse (current/former): 20%
Live-in Partner (current/former): 4%
Date (current/former): 22%
Relative other than Spouse: 22%
Acquaintance: 27%
Stranger: 17%

For children 11 and under:
Relative: 87%
Acquaintance: 25%
Stranger: 11%

For girls 12 to 17
Intimate Partner: 36%
Relative: 20%
Acquaintance: 33%
Stranger: 15%

For women 18 and older
Intimate Partner: 62%
Relative Other Than Spouse: 9%
Acquaintance: 21%
Stranger: 19%
 
I was using figures that look only at over sixteens - eg adult rapes as opposed to child abuse. And yes I know it changes the figures somewhat, I think it works out at nearer one in 10 women in the US being raped as an adult (one in 20 in the UK survey).

And as to your previous post, it is precisely the acquaintances, friends, partners etc that the OP is concerned about. It's about not letting someone into your social circle who shows signs that they don't totally respect your boundaries.
 
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All no, but men talk. If they're spilling the beans to surveys like Tranewreck cited I'm fairly confident they spill the beans over beers with a friend.

Why do you think men hide it like women do?

I would assume that:

1. A survey has a guarantee of confidentiality -- though, yes, there is probably some underreporting anyway -- while spilling the beans to everyone you do know is essentially a confession.

2. The focus in most male's bragging is on, basically, the results and/or performance, rather than on how much force was needed. "I banged that blonde all night" is something to brag about, while "by threatening to punch her in the face" or "while she was passed out drunk, and I should probably have called an ambulance instead of banging her" doesn't exactly roll off the tongue in casual conversation.

In fact given how much of some people's self image revolves around their being so ridiculously manly and all, confessing such details would make it look less manly. There isn't very much of a conquest to brag about in admitting that someone wasn't even conscious enough to actually use any charm and wit on.

Basically, same as you don't hear many confess that they're having erectile dysfunctions or a small dick over a beer. Men, like women, don't tell everything to everyone, and some creative puffering is pretty much understood to be allowed.

3. As the survey points out, most rapists don't even think they're rapists. If you ask "did you rape a woman before", you'd get a lot less "yes". It's only when you ask about details like "did you have to use force or threat of force" or "did she really want it, or was she too drunk to defend herself" that it turns out it was legally rape all right.

But it's those questions no gentleman actually asks another gentleman over beer, do they? At least I never heard someone do it. It's one of those things that directly questions someone's being manly, and you do it only if you want to insult his junk.

4. Look around. Given how many people question that rape even happens -- except maybe, you know, somewhere else and in so small numbers that really nobody should give it a second thought, if you listen to the rationalizations -- how many do you think suddenly do want to know all about a possible rape when they're having a beer with someone?
 
Hans, maybe I'm misunderstanding you here, but from my reading, none of the college students in that survey "self identified as rapists", because the word rape was deliberately and specifically avoided in the survey.


Indeed that seems to be the point of the article. These people did not consider themselves to be rapists.

That 120 of 1882 college students self identified as guys I'd like to kick in the head is, I agree, deeply disturbing.

While they did make that distinction all right, and you're correct, nevertheless what they admitted there was the very definition of being a rapist. So it's basically like the distinction between "I'm a driver" and "I drive a car". Both mean the same thing.

Frankly, I'm astonished that even one answered "yes" to any of these questions, as doing so would be self incrimination- and could have led to criminal proceedings. That leads me to suspect they were guaranteed anonymity, which in turn makes me wonder how many of the responses were pure BS. Why would college students voluntarily take part in such a survey? Were they paid? Did they have an attitude towards the people carrying out the survey?
This just doesn't seem to me to make much sense.


ETA- Prof. I'm 55. I work in a virtually all male industry. Yes, men talk about women. A lot. Mostly they talk about what women say and do that they (men) find funny or incomprehensible.
I have never, not even once, known a man to admit to sexual assault, or even to hint at it. Never. I can't , therefore, say what the reaction would be if one did, but I suspect it would be bloody.

The survey Hans links to above therefore strikes me as simply unbelievable. Maybe college students are different from my day, but if anyone in my university class had admitted to (far less boasted of) assaulting a woman, I doubt he would have walked for some time afterward. While it's clear that some men are indeed a danger to women, what the article in the OP completely fails to mention is that the majority of men are not and would be both horrified and deeply insulted to be considered as such.

As I was saying above, I don't think any of them were actually boasting. They only admitted it in an anonymous survey, and only when questioned explicitly about the details of how.

In a non-anonymous setting, it might well happen a lot less. Same as, you know, if I were to start stealing office supplies, I might admit that in an anonymous survey outside the company, but not boast to my coworkers.

And I've never heard anyone actually ask those details in an informal setting. When you hear someone boasting about how he finally got sex from his girlfriend over the weekend, you don't exactly ask "did you have to threaten her to finally put out?" At least not without becoming the kind of a-hole that doesn't get invited to the pub any more.
 
2%-16% of the male population should be convicted of a serious criminal act and put in prison for years at a time?

That sounds expensive.
 

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