Schrodinger's Rapist: When is uncritical thought ok?

[Eric D]

And this happens to what degree? Oh that's right, hardly ever. So where is the actual, non-hypothetical irrationality?

That's one possible example of how someone who doesn't have the same fear as someone else can have a better opinion on their situation than they do.

If someone was afraid of flying it's okay to let them panic on an airplane because you don't have the same fear?

 

[bookitty]

Feminism is the most influential form of institutionalized sexism going.

You were so close.

Ahhh...so now I am supposed to say that I'm no true feminist because I like men, don't think all of them are rapists, and would like to continue to play in the sandbox, please.

Feminism is just the idea that the world is co-ed and that both sexes should have the same opportunities. That's all. It's not really scary enough to need defending.

 

[Eric D]

The opinion that fear of rape is rational? Maybe and maybe that's the case. Now if you could just make the case that fear of rape is irrational, we would have something to discuss. Otherwise, stop pouting.

I never said that fear of rape is irrational. The fear varies from woman to woman.

 

[TraneWreck]

That's one possible example of how someone who doesn't have the same fear as someone else can have a better opinion on their situation than they do.

If someone was afraid of flying it's okay to let them panic on an airplane because you don't have the same fear?

This line of argument is so bizarre. What does the writer's "fear" of rape lead her to do? Stay at home? Hire a bodyguard? Preemptively slice off men's penises in case they're the rapey tipe?

Nope. She just won't smile at you warmly when you talk to her on a bus and requests that you don't follow her around and send her weird e-mails.

Her prescriptive behavior in response to the small chance that she's facing a sex-criminal is perfectly proportionate.

 

[bookitty]

I never said that fear of rape is irrational. The fear varies from woman to woman.

I'm in no way claiming that I know what it's like to be a woman in fear of being raped, but does that mean I should just shut up and listen even if her fear is irrational?

 

[Eric D]

This line of argument is so bizarre. What does the writer's "fear" of rape lead her to do? Stay at home? Hire a bodyguard? Preemptively slice off men's penises in case they're the rapey tipe?

Nope. She just won't smile at you warmly when you talk to her on a bus and requests that you don't follow her around and send her weird e-mails.

Her prescriptive behavior in response to the small chance that she's facing a sex-criminal is perfectly proportionate.

I'm not talking about the writer of the article. If you go back and read the thread, I was responding to another persson's statement that all "mansplainers" just need to keep their mouth shut when the subject is a woman's fear because they're not an authority on the subject. However that poster later explained that she didn't mean all men when she said mansplainers. Fair enough. Then book itty started it up again, labeling me a mansplainer.

Why am I a mansplainer? Apparently because I dismiss a woman's fear without caring about or listening to what she has to say.

 

[Eric D]

The key word is IF her fear is irrational. I never said all fear of rape is irrational. Some women are less afraid than others, do you disagree? As I have said, the fear varies from woman to woman.

 

[TraneWreck]

I'm not talking about the writer of the article. If you go back and read the thread, I was responding to another persson's statement that all "mansplainers" just need to keep their mouth shut when the subject is a woman's fear because they're not an authority on the subject. However that poster later explained that she didn't mean all men when she said mansplainers. Fair enough. Then book itty started it up again, labeling me a mansplainer.

Why am I a mansplainer? Apparently because I dismiss a woman's fear without caring about or listening to what she has to say.

And yet you have so much to say about the rationality of fearing rape. Trying to evaluate the fear without considering the actions taken in response to that fear is a worthless endeavor. No woman, either on this thread or in the OP's article, have remotely suggested an irrational response to that fear.

Thus, you simply calling the fear itself irrational, though you've never experienced yourself, is incredibly arrogant and lacking in empathy. These two characteristics, I'd imagine, lie at the very root of "mansplaining."

It should also be pointed out that the weight of the statistical evidence makes the case for women carrying a very rational fear of sexual assault.

 

[John Jones]

Ahhh...so now I am supposed to say that I'm no true feminist because I like men

Strawman.

Feminism is just the idea that the world is co-ed and that both sexes should have the same opportunities. That's all. It's not really scary enough to need defending.

Feminism cares nothing about equal protection under the law without regard to sex.

Mainstream feminism is all about more for women. Full Stop.

Were you trying to imply otherwise?

 

[Eric D]

And yet you have so much to say about the rationality of fearing rape. Trying to evaluate the fear without considering the actions taken in response to that fear is a worthless endeavor. No woman, either on this thread or in the OP's article, have remotely suggested an irrational response to that fear.

That's where you an I differ in opinion. It's my opinion that her (author of the article) response to her fear is irrational. Labeling all men as a threat to me is antisocial.

Thus, you simply calling the fear itself irrational, though you've never experienced yourself, is incredibly arrogant and lacking in empathy. These two characteristics, I'd imagine, lie at the very root of "mansplaining."

So if someone is diagnosed as having a phobia (irrational fear by definition) and the person making the diagnosis doesn't have a similar fear he is lacking empathy and arrogant. The only way someone can make that judgement is if they experienced the fear themselves. Gotcha.

It should also be pointed out that the weight of the statistical evidence makes the case for women carrying a very rational fear of sexual assault.

In what situation? How much fear are we talking about? Does their fear warrant antisocial behavior and them labeling all men they meet as threats?

 

[Lyrandar]

Let's see... I see two points I'd like to respond to.

Feminism cares nothing about equal protection under the law without regard to sex.

Mainstream feminism is all about more for women. Full Stop.

Were you trying to imply otherwise?

Funny point here: when one side's been discriminated against, they are going to need more than they've had in the past to gain equality. So yes, they are trying to get more. However, this is not a problem unless it goes too far, and I don't think it has yet.

Also, I get the impression that you're saying that this whole thing about rights and consideration is a zero-sum game. I disagree with that as well.

That's where you an I differ in opinion. It's my opinion that her (author of the article) response to her fear is irrational. Labeling all men as a threat to me is antisocial.

So if someone who is diagnosed as having a phobia (irrational fear by definition) and the person making the diagnosis doesn't have the same phobia he is lacking empathy and arrogant. The only way someone can make that judgement is if they experienced the fear themselves. Gotcha.

Not quite, but I'd think that in a lot of cases they'd need some amount of empathy and understanding. And whether or not the fear is irrational, you are not going to be able to show any amount of either if you are dismissing the fear out of hand without listening to anything.

In fact, if the fear is irrational, that's even more reason to shut up and listen carefully. If you intend to try and help that person recover from that irrational fear, you're going to need to know how they think and why they think that way, since it's not going to match what you expect. Simply dismissing the fear as irrational isn't going to help.

 

[TraneWreck]

That's where you an I differ in opinion. It's my opinion that her (author of the article) response to her fear is irrational. Labeling all men as a threat to me is antisocial.

Ok, so what? I really don't think she would care if you call her such, she just doesn't want creepy douches harassing her. She even talks about this explicitly in the article.

So if someone who is diagnosed as having a phobia (irrational fear by definition) and the person making the diagnosis doesn't have the same phobia he is lacking empathy and arrogant. The only way someone can make that judgement is if they experienced the fear themselves. Gotcha.

THis is honestly a pathetic argument. Surely you can see the circularity. A phobia is an irrational fear, so is telling someone with a clinically diagnosed irrational fear that their fear is irrational arrogant and lacking empathy? Silliness.

Notice that a diagnosis of a phobia depends on a person's reaction to a given situation. Once again, the fear cannot be separated from the behavior.

It's very, very rational to be afraid of heights and take precautions to avoid falling. The only behavioral responses to the fear of rape have been akin to putting a guard rail on a balcony. What are the odds that you're going to trip walking out the door and plummet a hundred feet to your death? About zero.

Putting up a guard rail is a rational response to the fear. Crawling under a bed and weeping would be irrational. The object to be feared and the likelihood of it occurring is the same in both cases.

So yes, it would be arrogant and lacking in empathy (probably bad words for this scenario, lame and ridiculous are better) to chastise someone for putting a guard rail up around their balcony.

In what situation? How much fear are we talking about? Does their fear warrant antisocial behavior and them labeling all they meet men as threats?

What is the anti-social behavior? Not responding to your come-ons? Sometimes people like to be left alone. Not respecting the boundaries of others would be the anti-social behavior.

Notice that it's context sensitive as well. She describes situations in which social communications are welcome and also describes situations that make her uncomfortable. It's really not that complicated and your protestations come off like whining, more than anything.

 

[Eric D]

Not quite, but I'd think that in a lot of cases they'd need some amount of empathy and understanding. And whether or not the fear is irrational, you are not going to be able to show any amount of either if you are dismissing the fear out of hand without listening to anything.

In fact, if the fear is irrational, that's even more reason to shut up and listen carefully. If you intend to try and help that person recover from that irrational fear, you're going to need to know how they think and why they think that way, since it's not going to match what you expect. Simply dismissing the fear as irrational isn't going to help.

I'm not dismissing anything, but I can recognize a specific fear as irrational, can't I? To be dismissive would be for me to not listen at all, but I never indicated that I'm unwilling to listen.
I guess whoever coined virginitiphobic was just being dismissive, unless it was a woman.

 

[Eric D]

What is the anti-social behavior? Not responding to your come-ons? Sometimes people like to be left alone. Not respecting the boundaries of others would be the anti-social behavior.

All women so far respond positively to my come-ons.

The antisocial behavior is not when she exercises caution, but things like when she's more cautious of the man with tattoos and says that person, based on his appearance, should limit his dating experience to the internet. That's irrational behavior to me. It doesn't matter how afraid you are of guys with tattoos, you're a jerk if you consider them more of a threat than the next guy.

 

[TraneWreck]

All women so far respond positively to my come-ons.

I'm SHOCKED that you would say that, on the internet, no less.

The antisocial behavior is not when she exercises caution, but things like when she's more cautious of the man with tattoos and says that person, based on his appearance, should limit his dating experience to the internet. That's irrational behavior to me. It doesn't matter how afraid you are of guys with tattoos, you're a jerk if you consider them more of a threat than the next guy.

This is a deep and important point you've shared with us. Women everywhere shall henceforth change their opinions to fall more in line with your understanding of reality.

 

[Lyrandar]

I'm not dismissing anything, but I can recognize a specific fear as irrational, can't I? To be dismissive would be for me to not listen at all, but I never indicated that I'm unwilling to listen.
I guess whoever coined virginitiphobic was just being dismissive, unless it was a woman.

I'll grant that one - I don't know very much about how dismissive you'd be in real life.

That said, the general tone I've been getting hasn't been good. Even if you say that you are willing to listen, I wonder how open to understanding you can be when you seem to be focusing so much on whether or not the fear is irrational. Being understanding and willing to listen without prejudice is sensible whether the fear is irrational or not, and tossing around words like "irrational", given the negative connotations, isn't a good way to appear understanding.

 

[Eric D]

It's really not that complicated and your protestations come off like whining, more than anything.

Her protestations of strangers saying "hi" to her on a subway come off as paranoid. I'm not whining, I simply disagree with her behavior.

 

[bookitty]

Strawman.

Feminism cares nothing about equal protection under the law without regard to sex.

Mainstream feminism is all about more for women. Full Stop.

Were you trying to imply otherwise?

No, I consider myself a feminist because I work toward giving women equal protection under the law. I don't think women should get more than men just for being women, that would be unfair. It's very difficult to have equality between the sexes if someone is being treated unfairly.

 

[Eric D]

I'll grant that one - I don't know very much about how dismissive you'd be in real life.

That said, the general tone I've been getting hasn't been good. Even if you say that you are willing to listen, I wonder how open to understanding you can be when you seem to be focusing so much on whether or not the fear is irrational. Being understanding and willing to listen without prejudice is sensible whether the fear is irrational or not, and tossing around words like "irrational", given the negative connotations, isn't a good way to appear understanding.

It's not yours to grant.

I'm not focusing a lot on whether a woman's fear is irrational, I'm just having to defend my statement over and over again on this forum.

What I'm actually taking issue with is the fact some people seem to think my opinion is worthless because I'm a man and I don't share similar experiences. I can shut up, and I can listen, and after that it's my call on how I feel about a situation. Insensitive? Well so is labeling every man you meet a threat.

 

[Eric D]

I'm SHOCKED that you would say that, on the internet, no less.



This is a deep and important point you've shared with us. Women everywhere shall henceforth change their opinions to fall more in line with your understanding of reality.

I'm not asking them to change their opinions. I'm simply expressing my opinion, which is that she lives in fear and it causes her to act like a jerk.