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Schrodinger's Rapist: When is uncritical thought ok?

Neither. I was pointing out the absurdity in treating the opposite sex as if they were evil because some of them are. And especially how ridiculous it is to tell someone how they should act to avoid coming across as evil. Especially if you're going to go so far as to tell someone with strange tattoos that they shouldn't try to talk to a girl in public, but should stick to online dating. Some people aren't good at taking a hint that you want them to get lost. Some people aren't good at reading body language. Some people like strange tattoos. Some people are rapists. Let's not go mixing them all together.

The gist of the article is that when a woman is expressing a lack of interest in a man's advances (and she may do so subtly), then he should cease. Do you disagree?

Statistically, a 30 year old woman on a bus has almost zero chance of being raped by a guy asking her out on a date.

Considering everyone that approaches as a possible rapist in this case doesn't seem very effective at preventing a rape. Given the amount of time a person spends on the bus every day, this is an unnecessary amount of worrying for a person to do.

Any time I enter a vehicle that will be moving, I act as though that trip could potentially lead to a life-threatening injury. Thus, I wear my seat belt. The actual odds of any given trip resulting in serious harm are astoundingly small, but I still buckle up.

Am I behaving irrationally?
 
I see your point, but I disagree with you. If you cross the street when you're alone and get approached by a group of people you're using your own judgment to try to avoid a bad situation. If you cross the street because you're approached by a group of black people, you're being prejudiced. If I always drive like the people around me are inept, I'm using my own judgment to try to avoid a bad situation. If I treat the drivers around me who are female as if they're inept, I'm being prejudiced.

So...are you saying that to avoid being seen as prejudiced against men, women should treat both unknown men and women as potential rapists?
 
Do you think I’m overreacting? One in every six American women will be sexually assaulted in her lifetime.

Surely this doesn't mean you have a 16.67% chance of being raped. There's probably a significant proportion of women who live in terrible areas where violence is common. I'm pretty sure if you don't go down dark alleys at 2AM etc. your chance of being raped is much much lower than 1 in 6.
 
Surely this doesn't mean you have a 16.67% chance of being raped. There's probably a significant proportion of women who live in terrible areas where violence is common. I'm pretty sure if you don't go down dark alleys at 2AM etc. your chance of being raped is much much lower than 1 in 6.

Couple of problems:

1) "Rape" is not the only form of "sexual assault."

2) The statistic is for a lifetime. If you have a 1% chance of getting raped in any given alley at 2AM, the odds are low. If over 20 years you walk down 200 alleys at 2AM, it becomes incredibly likely (I realize that this, too, is an oversimplification).
 
The irony of the predictable example, of course, is that John Wayne Bobbit "sexually, physically, and emotionally abused (Lorena) during their marriage. She also stated that John flaunted his infidelities, and forced her to have an abortion." Bobbit denied the allegations, he was found innocent of raping her on the night she performed her infamous surgery, but his testimony concerning the other incidents conflicted with the facts and serveral witnesses confirmed Lorena's story.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_and_Lorena_Bobbitt

But that's a hilarious example of how women are just as dangerous as men.

Don't blame the victim, there's no excuse for butchering a person. :boxedin:
 
Surely this doesn't mean you have a 16.67% chance of being raped. There's probably a significant proportion of women who live in terrible areas where violence is common. I'm pretty sure if you don't go down dark alleys at 2AM etc. your chance of being raped is much much lower than 1 in 6.

Actually, no. Not hanging out in dark alleys might decrease the chance that you'll be raped by a stranger but rape, like murder, is often personal. It's someone you know.
 
Quick question: Why is it that any discussion of rape will eventually lead to a discussion of Lorena Bobbitt? If we take the 1 in 6 statistic to be true (and personally I think it's a bit low), rape happens frequently but dicks getting lopped off seems to be a one-time deal. Are guys really so insecure about this microscopic possibility that it trumps empathy? That doesn't seem likely. So what is it?
 
snip... It's that heap that worries her.

She prefaces the story by saying women live in constant fear and that's why it's perfectly legitimate to treat every man as a potential rapist.

Women don't have to live in constant fear if they are simply aware of the risks and take the proper measures to prevent them.

Like I said, I don't really care one way or the other, it's a personal choice and whatever works for you it the right thing to do. I'm sure this is an effective way of avoiding rape.

But you can't overlook the fact that this perpetuates the "constant fear" women live in. Even if it's rational and effective it's somewhat circular.
 
I took this article to heart. From now on, when I meet a woman, I'm going to ensure her right up front that I'm not going to rape her. I'll also assure her that I'm not lying. That way she can feel completely comfortable around me. In fact, I think my new pick up line is going to be "I'm not going to rape you. I'm not lying". That sounds like a good way of breaking the ice and getting her over those first couple "is he going to rape me" moments of conversation.

The reason this article had such an impact on me, is that I too have similar fears. Some women have been known to cut off a man's penis. Now, I know that most of you women out there would never cut off a man's penis, but I have no way of knowing which of you is which. So, cute girl at the bar giving me the eyes could very well be planning to cut my penis off. Or she could want to do other things with my penis. I simply don't know. And, as you might expect, having one's penis cut off is a rather traumatic experience, usually changing a man for the rest of his life. So men are taking on a lot of risk by interacting with a woman. And, frankly, I don't think women take this into account when they interact with a guy.

So, women, when you are talking to a man, there's several things you're going to want to do so as to let him know that you're not the kind of girl to cut his penis off.

1. Don't speak unless your spoken to: This lets me know that you're not the kind of girl to act impulsively. The kind of girl who can come up with ideas on her own is the same kind that can come up with the idea to cut my penis off.

2. Avert your gaze: Being stared at is intimidating. If I feel intimidated by you, I will also feel like my penis is in danger.

3. Don't smile: If you smile I'll see your teeth, then I'll be reminded of how much damage your teeth could potentially do to my penis. Believe it or not, this is a troubling thought to most men.

4. All in all, just act submissively: You want to act as submissive as possible so that I won't get any impression of aggression from you. Aggression sometimes leads to violence, which sometimes leads to penises getting cut off. If I see you act in any way aggressive, I might assume that you're maybe the type of girl who will get violent, which means that there's some chance that you might be a penis cutter, perhaps. No matter what that chance is, it's not zero. So it's perfectly logical for me to be wary of you.

Now, I know these may seem strange, but is it really so much to ask? After all, you are the one who could potentially cut my penis off. It's my penis that's at risk here. All I'm asking is that you follow these four little rules to set my mind at ease. And, any woman who doesn't respect a man enough to follow these little rules probably doesn't respect him enough to not cut his penis off.

Oh, and I almost forgot the most important rule of all: Don't cut penises off.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaah! Beautiful!
 
Any time I enter a vehicle that will be moving, I act as though that trip could potentially lead to a life-threatening injury. Thus, I wear my seat belt. The actual odds of any given trip resulting in serious harm are astoundingly small, but I still buckle up.

Am I behaving irrationally?

Obviously not.

But like I said I think the back and forth people are having over this is her implying men don't know what it's like to live in constant fear of being raped. This begins to border on irrational. I think that's why the OP seems a little confused and I am as well. She presents are very rational argument, but you begin to wonder how far she's willing to take it. Especially when she describes some unusual events and you realize she's a 35 year old feminist.
Based on statistics, what might be entirely rational for a 17 year old girl isn't for a 65 year old woman. The same way wearing a seatbelt is rational, but wearing a full face helmet and installing a 5 point harness isn't.
 
She prefaces the story by saying women live in constant fear and that's why it's perfectly legitimate to treat every man as a potential rapist.

Women don't have to live in constant fear if they are simply aware of the risks and take the proper measures to prevent them.

Like I said, I don't really care one way or the other, it's a personal choice and whatever works for you it the right thing to do. I'm sure this is an effective way of avoiding rape.

But you can't overlook the fact that this perpetuates the "constant fear" women live in. Even if it's rational and effective it's somewhat circular.

"Simply" aware of the risks? Could you be a little more condescending?

Women are aware of the risks and the article outlines some of the measures that women take to prevent them. Namely, not trusting strangers and being hyper-aware of clues that indicate danger.

If rape was only the stranger lurking in the dark alley, it would be easy to avoid. Unfortunately, that's not the case. It is more often a crime of opportunity. A man has noticed that a woman is vulnerable and takes advantage of it. This isn't something you can plan for except to make sure that you are never vulnerable. This means treating every man as a potential rapist. There is no "personal choice" in this matter.

Women don't live in "constant fear," but they do live in a state of heightened awareness. Most woman have either been raped or have a friend who has been raped. Most men know a woman who has been raped (although they might not always be aware of it, or have dismissed it.)
 
"Simply" aware of the risks? Could you be a little more condescending?

Yes.

I'm sure for women, reading a pamphlet on the dangers of rape and how to prevent them is a 2 year course at a community college :rolleyes:

It wasn't condescending, it's a common adjective used to suggest there is plenty of information that is easily made available to anyone interested. It's not the formula for new Coke. (that was condescending)

And I wasn't suggesting it's "simple" to avoid high risk situations either. But that getting the information to help you identify them is.
 
As I said, I'm getting frustrated with the evasions on this point.

Like this evasion. How is she being antisocial? By not responding positively when strangers chat her up on the subway? How is she "promoting division instead of unity"? You're speaking in vague generalities.

I think you're being a bit dishonest here, calling responses 'evasions' when they're clearly not. You asked a question (What is she doing wrong?); I gave an answer (She's being antisocial.) Maybe it's an unsatisfactory answer, but it's not an evasion.

Society generally functions better when people work together and exhibit altruistic behaviour towards one another. Walking around predicating your interactions with every second person you meet with "What could this person do to harm me?" is in opposition to societal benefit. Obviously, it's a sliding scale based on the conditions and environment.

I question whether a good society is one where everyone is continuously thinking "That person could rape me. That person could rape me." Yes, I know that the most efficient way to deal with the problem is to get rid of the rapists. Note that this is being addressed in society, but isn't going to be accomplished by pessimistic speculation on what people could do, only by dealing with what they've actually done, or are likely to do.

you believe that the probability is so low that it should be disregard. To which I say: (1) easy for you to say

I didn't say disregard, I said things like 'reasonable precaution' and 'behave sensibly'.

Granted, it is much less likely that I, personally, will be raped than any given women, but it's possible. Should men also not talk to me in case I think they're rapists? Is the probability that I will be raped low enough to ignore? How does one objectively determine the acceptability of probability?

It's not easy for me to say. I have a wife and would be mortified if she were raped. As, I imagine, any loving husband would be.I also have a mother, a sister, a niece and many close female friends. I hope none of them are ever raped, or any other women for that matter. I encourage all of them to take reasonable precautions to prevent any situation where they could be assaulted. Living through the rape of a loved one is no doubt much less traumatic than actually being raped, but there are still painful consequences. You refer to me as though I live in a bubble where I'm completely separated from the realities of the world. Despite how you may have pictured me, I don't spend my entire life in front of the computer, eating Cheetos and playing WoW.

You haven't identified any fallacy that the author or I have proposed

Her words:

You want to say Hi to the cute girl on the subway. How will she react? Fortunately, I can tell you with some certainty, because she’s already sending messages to you. Looking out the window, reading a book, working on a computer, arms folded across chest, body away from you = do not disturb. So, y’know, don’t disturb her. Really. Even to say that you like her hair, shoes, or book. A compliment is not always a reason for women to smile and say thank you. You are a threat, remember? You are Schrödinger’s Rapist.

i) Some men are rapists.
ii) Rapists are threats.
Therefore, all men are threats.

Fallacious. Men are threats simply for wanting to say 'hi' to a girl on the subway? Certainly a man shouldn't be labeled as a 'threat' just for wanting to say 'hi'. Maybe she's not sending signals, maybe she hasn't even noticed the guy. The women is not obligated to respond in any way whatsoever. She could ignore him, or say a polite "Thanks." and go back to reading, or, if social conventions aren't important to her, say, "Piss off, you maggot." Is the author suggesting we never talk to anyone unless we already have their complete, undivided attention? It certainly sounds that way.

On the other hand, if she is turned towards you, making eye contact...

If not, where's the line? How do we logically determine it? Or is she just asserting her opinion as fact?
 
Yes.

I'm sure for women, reading a pamphlet on the dangers of rape and how to prevent them is a 2 year course at a community college :rolleyes:

It wasn't condescending, it's a common adjective used to suggest there is plenty of information that is easily made available to anyone interested. It's not the formula for new Coke. (that was condescending)

And I wasn't suggesting it's "simple" to avoid high risk situations either. But that getting the information to help you identify them is.

The methods to avoid being raped by a stranger are the same as those used to avoid any kind of attack by a stranger. As it has been noted several times before this, it is much more likely for a woman to be raped by her spouse/significant other, co-worker/boss, teacher, family member, friend or date than by a stranger.

Can you please advise me on avoiding potentially being raped by any of these people without having to dramatically alter my life?

One of the big problems with talking about ways to avoid being raped is that it inevitably leads to a certain amount of victim blaming. "Well, you shouldn't have been walking down that alley at 2 AM in that short skirt" is pretty familiar. But what about "Well maybe you shouldn't have gotten married/have a job/know any people at all/have such a vulnerable vagina/exist"?

And just a note to the mansplainers, when the conversation is about women's experience of rape and fear of rape, you are not the authority. If you want be helpful or just to gain some insight into these experiences, you just need to shut up and listen.
 
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In this America where we piss ourselves and change our laws because bearded men in caves thousands of miles away say their going to hurt us (despite lacking any means to do so), I find it ironic that people so casually dismiss the most vile, ancient form of terrorism: men dominating women.

And despite the constant abuse meted out by members of both sexes on their partners, due to personal evil and dysfunctional relationships, it frustrates me that people still have the blinders on that this is primarily a unidirectional gender problem.
The facilitated, codified malice, the power plays, the general terror felt on a daily basis, occurs all over the country in men against women and other men, and in women against men and other women. The most common form of abuse in the U.S. is women against their children. But at least when a man abuses his wife, most people see it as deplorable, while men being abused by their wives are so often thought of as funny. Constant verbal and emotional attacks are acceptable, even expected. Women just can't be rapists or abusers.
This is not a gender relations problem, and couching it as one is sexist and offensive.
 
And just a note to the menz, when the conversation is about women's experience of rape and fear of rape, you are not the authority. If you want be helpful or just to gain some insight into these experiences, you just need to shut up and listen.

When a woman is relating her experience, how is any other woman more of an authority than any man is? Acting like your experience is unified with hers any more than anyone else's, you've already decided to divide people up into groups -- and, quite frankly, the wrong ones.
An appropriate distinction is between abusers and those who have been victims of abuse. Why does it offend your sensibilities so much that some men are in the latter group? Or that a man might very well relate to the experience as much as you do? How can you possibly claim to know if you're not he?
 
When a woman is relating her experience, how is any other woman more of an authority than any man is? Acting like your experience is unified with hers any more than anyone else's, you've already decided to divide people up into groups -- and, quite frankly, the wrong ones.
An appropriate distinction is between abusers and those who have been victims of abuse. Why does it offend your sensibilities so much that some men are in the latter group? Or that a man might very well relate to the experience as much as you do? How can you possibly claim to know if you're not he?

Maybe it was this discussion on rape and maybe it was another one, but somewhere around here in the past few days I pointed out that a man in prison is more likely to be raped than any woman outside of a correctional facility. In my last post, I did not gender any of the potential attackers. Women rape other women, as well as men, all the time, not to mention the different configurations of trans bodies and gender identities, all of which have equal access to both sides of the rape coin. However, in this thread, the main topic of discussion is the rape, potential rape and cultural obsession surrounding the rape of cis-gendered women.

I apologize for erasing non-female experiences of sexual abuse, which are relevant, hugely important, and all too often ignored or shrugged off.

You may have noticed that I changed "the menz" to "mansplainers" right after I made the post. That statement was not directed at men in general and I apologize again for misspeaking.
 
Also, trans women, who are statistically more likely to end up in prison than any other group of people, are victims of sexual abuse far more often than cis women.
 
I apologize for erasing non-female experiences of sexual abuse, which are relevant, hugely important, and all too often ignored or shrugged off.
You probably actually didn't do that; I just assumed you did because I have a chip on my shoulder about this stuff. I apologize for responding with hostility; you are clearly very aware of the issues surrounding this discussion that make me so emotional.
I should take a deep breath and go read some other threads.
 

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