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School Vouchers

Silicon said:


No standard? None?

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He's making that up, I think. :)

In my youth, I attended several "non-elite" private schools. Every single one of 'em had admissions standards. They often have a "no discrimination" policy for race, but you've still got to take an admissions test.

I think self-selection bias and socioeconomic differences probably account for much of the "success" of the private schools. Small class sizes and better/newer facilities probably also account for some of it.

What, to me, is shocking about the site linked above is that 44% of "elite" private schooled 12th graders aren't able to read proficiently.
 
I was shocked that private schools only produced a 5% more likely chance of graduating high school. What a waste of money.

I'll send my kid to public school, and spend the money for private school on a tutor instead. Or suppliment her teaching myself, from my collected college books.

Of course a child with parents active in her education like me is self-selecting! Her likeliness of dropping out of high-school is 0%! Her likeliness of reading below grade average is 0%!

I can do better than a private school's measily 5% average.
 
"Of course a child with parents active in her education like me is self-selecting! Her likeliness of dropping out of high-school is 0%! Her likeliness of reading below grade average is 0%!

I can do better than a private school's measily 5% average."

Well said!

I believe parents can play a huge role in the success of their child in school. Sending a child to a private school requires a commitment by the parents, at the very least a financial one. That alone indicates they recognize the value of school and believe paying the extra money will result in a better education. That suggests the parents give a damn and most likely will play a role in helping the child be successful. Those kids have an advantage right off the bat. I'd say they have better odds of being successful students that those that go though school with a family environment that doesn't care or value education. That, among other things, stacks the deck in favor of many private schools and I also would expect the 5% number to be much higher.
 
Lurker said:
Interesting point about the GI Bill. On a broader point, my problem with vouchers is they would take considerable money away from the public schools. Considerable!

Lurker
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Actually, none of the plans that I have seen (proposed by the democrats of republicans) allow the student to take the entire amount allocated to the public school with them when they choose to go to a private school. Therefore, if the $/student were (hypothetically) $5,000 and they were allowed to take 2/3 or $3,333.33 with them in the form of a voucher...that still leaves $1,666.66 with the public school. The student is not there and the school does not have to spend the money on them any longer. Hey, even if all of the students took the vouchers and left the school would still have money to do absolutely nothing.


Okay, let me have it now :)

Edited for horrible spelling, damn public schools :mad:
 
Groundstrength,

You can't use an average price-per-student unless the children who would be leaving the public schools would be exactly average over the entire student body.

So, say a developmentally disabled (retarded) child might cost 20,000 a year to teach, and the family can't afford a private school to take them.

So you probably lose the kids that are the least expensive to teach (high achievement, low behavioral problems, no special needs, mastery of spoken English) and you keep the kids that are the most expensive.

Do you siphon enough of the easyier to teach kids so that you save enough to pay for the costly ones?

That's a math problem that's much harder to do. And if you do it wrong, it becomes an expensive mistake.

For only 5% benefit for the students whose parents take that initiative, that's an expensive risk.
 
Silicon,

Yes, I agree that my statement does not take into consideration 'special' cases, but far too many children are designated as special when they might not actually be.

The school that my children attend tries to convince me that both of my children are special needs, even though they are both A/B grade students. They continually try get get them classified as
ADD/ADHD. Perhaps they are (man, it seems like it at home sometimes) but it does not effect their actual grades or conduct grades. I assume that this is a ploy for more money for the school.

I must add the school does a great job at teaching the children.
 
Y know what school vouchers is really about? Its about a group of people trying clever ways to get the governemt to pay for things they dont want to pay for themselves.

Its just more fleecing of the government till.


ps. Our public schools are much better than people let on. No one wants to say that cause all sides want this perception of failing schools so they (school board, teacher unions, voucher advocates) can beg for more money as a "fix" to the probem.
 
Tmy said:
Y know what school vouchers is really about? Its about a group of people trying clever ways to get the governemt to pay for things they dont want to pay for themselves.

Its just more fleecing of the government till.


ps. Our public schools are much better than people let on. No one wants to say that cause all sides want this perception of failing schools so they (school board, teacher unions, voucher advocates) can beg for more money as a "fix" to the probem.
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Its not the goverment's money to begin with.
 
Tmy said:
Well it sure aint the private schools money.
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It's the parents' money. Let 'em spend it on private school if they want. If they opt out of the system, that's one less child the system has to pay for, so it's only fair. It makes no sense to force them to pay for school twice.
 
shanek said:


It's the parents' money. Let 'em spend it on private school if they want. If they opt out of the system, that's one less child the system has to pay for, so it's only fair. It makes no sense to force them to pay for school twice.
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Its not the parents money. Its my money, and Im not a parent. So why should MY money go to BOTH a public school and a private school. Howz that for fairness? Do parents not have enough tax breaks already???

Schools are one of the few govt arms that the locals have great control over. If they f-up the schools, then its up to them to fix it. Not just jump ship and run off wh everyones tax money like its some entitlement.
 
Tmy said:
Its not the parents money. Its my money, and Im not a parent. So why should MY money go to BOTH a public school and a private school. Howz that for fairness?
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It wouldn't be, under my plan. The parents would get THEIR taxes back when they educate their child outside the government schools.

You do raise a good point, though: the government schools are paid for by those without kids as well. So it's not the case that if 5% of students are put in private schools that the government schools will have 5% less money, because they don't represent 5% of the people paying into it.
 
How much $$ does each child represent?? If the school has one less that doesnt mean they are going to save $5000 (the "cost" per child). There are so many sunk costs etc... that the schools savings is quite minimal. So these vouchers amounts should really be a fraction of the schools cost per student.
 
shanek said:


It wouldn't be, under my plan. The parents would get THEIR taxes back when they educate their child outside the government schools.
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Wow, if I hire a security guard, can I get back the taxes I paid for the police?

If I put a top-notch fire supression system in my home, can I stop paying for the fire department?

If I have a back yard, can I stop paying for parkland?

If I buy my own books, can we please tear down the public library?


Shout "Socialism!" all you want. There are just some things that only work when the entire society contributes.

Paying for school isn't a gift that government bestows on your child. You cannot monetize it, and spend it at will.
 
Silicon said:
Wow, if I hire a security guard, can I get back the taxes I paid for the police?
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No, but I think neighborhoods that run a community watch program and as a result have their crime drop, say, 30% should get a 30% cut on that portion of their taxes. That's what Libertarian Mayor Art Olivier did in Bellflower, CA and it worked wonderfully.

If I put a top-notch fire supression system in my home, can I stop paying for the fire department?
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There are places in Arkansas and elsewhere where you pay the FD directly, like a power bill, and that gives you kind of like insurance so they'll come out and put out a fire if you have one. If you haven't paid, they'll just put out the fire and send you a bill.

There are alternatives to all of these, and the small-mindedness of your post just shows the reluctance of some people to even consider them.
 
shanek said:


It wouldn't be, under my plan. The parents would get THEIR taxes back when they educate their child outside the government schools.
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I don't have children and yet I pay the same amount of income tax as some one with children would who earns my same level of pay, more actually since I don't have dependants to deduct. Can I get my taxes back to pay for me to go back to, say, grad school?

The notion that parents get their money back is rediculous.
 
Upchurch said:
I don't have children and yet I pay the same amount of income tax as some one with children would who earns my same level of pay, more actually since I don't have dependants to deduct. Can I get my taxes back to pay for me to go back to, say, grad school?
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Works for me.

The notion that parents get their money back is rediculous.
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Why?
 
Lets say you start up this voucher thing. How do you figure out the amount of money that the parents get?? Its not like their taxes are broken down into specific amounts that go to education, police, fire, the EPA, NASA, etc.....

How do you come up with a "fair" amount that reflects their monetary input.
 
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