School Vouchers

[Occasional Chemist]

Educated, or indoctrinated?

When did this become the conspiracy theory board?

Most of the problems and misconceptions about liberty and the Constitution and Federalism, in my experience, come about because people are just plain being taught the wrong things in government schools...and they just happens to be the things that cause people to accept an intrusive Federal government.

Such as?

And as for private schools being ANY better in the "indoctrination" side of things, check out

Education or indoctrination?

The Christian school's purpose is to guide children to academic maturity and to seek to conform their minds to the image of Christ.

Hmm...

 

[shanek]

Can you make the claim that a private company in the same situation would spend the money any more efficiently than the public school?

I wasn't making that point in my reply, but I can if you want.

The problem with the public schools around here at least is that they can always go to the County Commissioners whining for more money, and the Commissioners (who are all Republicans, BTW) will just fork over the dough because none of them wants to be seen as being against education or against children. Even though they just built two new high schools using the most lavish construction. 3-story entrance foyers with tile covering the walls and floor, auditoriums and presentation rooms with expensive wiring and presentation equipment, two stadiums apiece, etc., and afterwards they went back whining to the Commissioners because they didn't have money for textbooks.

Private companies have to prioritize funding because they can't just up and grab more money whenever they want to. They have to actually persuade people to spend their money on them, in the form of either tuition or donations. And since these are the people who actually worked to earn the money, as opposed to just taxing people and spending money that isn't theirs, they're going to want to make sure their money is going towards the right things.

I don't know of any private schools that are short on textbooks. And I don't know of any private schools with lavish, overblown construction. Even the local charter schools are way above the government schools in this regard: all classes are fully equipped, students have enough textbooks and other supplies, and no one has to go whining to anyone for money.

 

[shanek]

That control and accountability goes away when that money is given to a private school. Private schools are only accountable to the parents who bring the public money to them. They are not accountable to the general public that provides the public money.

This is a good point, and another good argument for tax credits instead of vouchers.

 

[shanek]

Such as?

Go to several government educated people and ask them if they have rights that aren't mentioned in the Constitution. Then ask them if the government can perform functions that aren't in the Constitution. Their responses should tell you all that you need to know.

As Tim Slagle pointed out, our children are being taught by the few people who don't think we pay enough in taxes.

 

[Occasional Chemist]

Go to several government educated people and ask them if they have rights that aren't mentioned in the Constitution. Then ask them if the government can perform functions that aren't in the Constitution. Their responses should tell you all that you need to know.

My money's on you not noticing much difference in the responses of private and public school graduates.

 

[Valmorian]

My money's on you not noticing much difference in the responses of private and public school graduates.

Agreed. I don't see why a private education _necessarily_ indicates a 'better' one.

 

[Occasional Chemist]

Even though they just built two new high schools using the most lavish construction. 3-story entrance foyers with tile covering the walls and floor, auditoriums and presentation rooms with expensive wiring and presentation equipment, two stadiums apiece, etc., and afterwards they went back whining to the Commissioners because they didn't have money for textbooks.

Oh come now - you're lambasting the schools for actually having a quality building built instead of the trailers that have been the staple at public schools for the past twenty years?

The real problem you might be seeing is not simply that government's providing the money - it's that the money is often earmerked for certain purposes (e.g. the building) and can't be spent for other things. That's something to take up with the state legislature.

Now since you're supposed to be saying how frugal private industry is compared to the public sector, I suppose you're now going to tell me that the private sector does NOT build buildings with fancy entryways -or that private schools don't build stadiums and fieldhouses for their own sports teams.

The "expensive wiring and presentation equipment" is necessary to modern education. Newer schools are teaching kids to use computers, the Internet, and (g*d help us all) things like Powerpoint.

I don't know of any private schools that are short on textbooks. And I don't know of any private schools with lavish, overblown construction.

I guess I'd have to see the buildings in question to see if they're "lavish", but in my area, the public school buildings are falling apart. The local megachurch's school is the most "lavish" building in town. The public school buildings are much as they were 20 years ago - with the addition of some trailers out back.

 

[shanek]

My money's on you not noticing much difference in the responses of private and public school graduates.

\

In my experience, the private school graduates tend to be much better educated on the Constitution. That's nothing scientific, which is why I told you to try it for yourself.

 

[shanek]

Oh come now - you're lambasting the schools for actually having a quality building built instead of the trailers that have been the staple at public schools for the past twenty years?

I went around asking every teacher I could find: Would you rather teach in a nice, lavish building with not enough textbooks and other supplies, or would you rather teach in a run-down trailer but with plenty of books and supplies? None of them even hesitated before choosing the latter.

The real problem you might be seeing is not simply that government's providing the money - it's that the money is often earmerked for certain purposes (e.g. the building) and can't be spent for other things. That's something to take up with the state legislature.

No, here, at least, that's all up to the county school planning board.

Now since you're supposed to be saying how frugal private industry is compared to the public sector, I suppose you're now going to tell me that the private sector does NOT build buildings with fancy entryways -or that private schools don't build stadiums and fieldhouses for their own sports teams.

Not when they're short on toilet paper they don't.

The "expensive wiring and presentation equipment" is necessary to modern education. Newer schools are teaching kids to use computers, the Internet, and (g*d help us all) things like Powerpoint.

Our local charter school seems to have found a way to do that just fine with much more modest construction.

 

[Grammatron]

Found this interesting site that lists advantages and disadvantages of private schools. The most interesting facts that I found was that private school cost nearly half that of public per student but the students score higher in private schools.

http://www.publicpurpose.com/pp-edpp.htm

 

[shanek]

Found this interesting site that lists advantages and disadvantages of private schools. The most interesting facts that I found was that private school cost nearly half that of public per student but the students score higher in private schools.

Amazing, isn't it? Also, notice that the Roman Catholic schools were doing worse than their other private school counterparts, but were still better than government schools.

 

[karl]

The difference is, when the city buys office supplies, they are still held acountable for what happens to those supplies. When cities provide money to a specific class of citizens to use at their descression, there is no accountability to the city itself.

You do realize that your principle also means you can't hand out welfare checks unless you get to elect the board members of each recipient family? But maybe that would be a good thing.

 

[Silicon]

Found this interesting site that lists advantages and disadvantages of private schools. The most interesting facts that I found was that private school cost nearly half that of public per student but the students score higher in private schools.

http://www.publicpurpose.com/pp-edpp.htm

I think you're pointing out the major difference between the kinds of kids from the kinds of backgrounds that are put in private school versus the ones who are in public school.

I can sum up the difference in two words: self-selecting.


Next you'll show a study that shows that football players who went to Notre Dame are better than the football players who went to Cal-State Fullerton.

They must teach better football!


Put kids from the same households, half in public school and half in private school, at random. And do that across all socio-economic lines. See how they do on test scores. If you can even GET private schools to admit the poor achievers, or the behavior-problem ones, or the non-english speakers.

 

[Grammatron]

I think you're pointing out the major difference between the kinds of kids from the kinds of backgrounds that are put in private school versus the ones who are in public school.

I can sum up the difference in two words: self-selecting.


Next you'll show a study that shows that football players who went to Notre Dame are better than the football players who went to Cal-State Fullerton.

They must teach better football!


Put kids from the same households, half in public school and half in private school, at random. And do that across all socio-economic lines. See how they do on test scores. If you can even GET private schools to admit the poor achievers, or the behavior-problem ones, or the non-english speakers.

The way Notre Dame played last year Fullerton might have actually beat them.

Anyway, back to the topic. I don't know where you are getting that only poor kids go to public school and only rich kids are going to private but I would like to see those statistics.

 

[shanek]

Put kids from the same households, half in public school and half in private school, at random. And do that across all socio-economic lines. See how they do on test scores. If you can even GET private schools to admit the poor achievers, or the behavior-problem ones, or the non-english speakers.

Notice that the link talks about "non-elite" private schools. Those are ones with no minimum admissions standard.

 

[Upchurch]

You do realize that your principle also means you can't hand out welfare checks unless you get to elect the board members of each recipient family? But maybe that would be a good thing.

well.... yes, I guess that's what it would mean, carried to it's logical extreme. It's the difference between welfare and social security. The latter is earned and the former isn't.

Regardless, it doesn't prove my point incorrect.

 

[Silicon]

I don't know where you are getting that only poor kids go to public school and only rich kids are going to private but I would like to see those statistics.

Point out where I said that, and I'll be happy to prove it.

I said that the people who go to private school are self-selecting. I did not say by wealth, and I certainly did not say that "only the poor go to public school and only the rich go to private school".

Can I creatively quote you now?

 

[Occasional Chemist]

http://www.publicpurpose.com/pp-edpp.htm

From the article...

Private schools cost less per student on average, yet, performance on standardized tests is higher in private schools than in public schools, although average differences may be in part related to socioeconomic and home factors.

If these numbers are not adjusted for socioeconomic factors, then they're simply not fair comparisons. Also, since a parent has to take action to enroll their child in a private school, you'd expect those parents to be more involved in their student's education and helping the student excel.

Plus, I'd take issue with the cost savings the article proposes. There's no mention of the relative numbers of special needs students at the private and public schools.

We must compare apples and apples here.

 

[Silicon]

Notice that the link talks about "non-elite" private schools. Those are ones with no minimum admissions standard.

No standard? None?

Are they required by law to take all children, no matter how many they can fit in their classrooms?

No matter if the children have severe learning disabilities?

No matter if children have chronic behavioral problems, they can't be kicked out?

No matter if the population requires they teach english with a baseline of zero to people with 40 different languages?

I'd sure love to see that private school.

 

[Occasional Chemist]

Notice that the link talks about "non-elite" private schools. Those are ones with no minimum admissions standard.

Where does it say that in the article?