School shooting in Finland

I see you learned nothing.
Actually, I would say that it is you that has learned nothing. "Innocently asking" accusative questions are a creationist's tool, not a rational man's tool. And you never answered the questions I so innocently asked. When was the last time you beat your wife? Don't want to comment because you're afraid to answer? ;)

That is solely up to him to prove.

I don't see why. It is your claim that there is reason to question whether or not he can be trusted. Please demonstrate why.

Put up, or stop making accusations.
 
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This assumes if he can't legally he'll give up, and this makes no sense. Guns can be purchased the same way narcotics can in the U.S and U.K.

And yet, this is exactly what seems to happen - these killings are typically made using legally-held weapons. In the UK, all such killings have been. Why? Who knows. Maybe the type of person that carries them out doesn't have the wherewithall to talk to unsavoury characters at his local pub in order to get hold of a weapon. Maybe they fear being harmed by the criminals dealing them, or getting caught in the act and therefore being imprisoned for at least 5 years without the chance to prosecute their fantasy. Again, I don't know. But the fact is, they use legal guns, and what evidence we have suggests that when legal guns are removed from the equation, the killings cease. If we have another one in the UK in the next few years using some other weapon or an illegal handgun, the argument will have been weakened.

It's cultural and psychological. Consider the problem of radical Islam.

Yes, the problem of disaffected and disturbed individuals is cultural and psychological. Governments have shown themselves to be incapable of ameliorating this, and so they look to preventative measures. Banning is one. It may not be the best one, but in my country, it was the obvious and easy to implement one.

What your government did was make legal purchase difficult

Not difficult, impossible. Even .22 manually-operated target pistols are illegal here. Unless you have or can develop criminal connections, you ain't getting a handgun, semi-auto rifle, or manually-operated shotgun of larger than two rounds capacity.

It didn't deter, in the least it happening again.

We don't know that. The data is insufficient. We had shootings like this using legally held weapons in 1987 and 1996. Post-ban (1997), we have had no comparable killings. Co-incidence? Quite possibly. The government may have theorised that the ban might reduce or eliminate future incidents, but they couldn't know that. They banned for emotional and political reasons, not practical ones. This is why I say I don't agree with the law, but I acknowledge that there's sound reasoning behind it, and thus far, no further shootings of this kind in this country. Take that for what you will.

That can't happen here because too many people own firearms and understand what nonsense those measures are.

Agreed. Public opinion is the driver in this case. If enough people were outraged at the annual loss of life on the roads, and felt comfortable with living without vehicles, the politicians would react by banning cars. In many countries, only a minority care about owning guns, so the decision to ban is an easy one. Doesn't make it right, necessarily, but that's democracy.
 
Please show where anyone says they would not report a school shooting that is in progress.

FINNISH police detained a teenager who allegedly posted a video on YouTube threatening a massacre similar to the one last week at a high school in Finland, police said.
Source

See what happens when something like that happens?

Someone steps in and takes responsibility.

Good thing, eh?
 
I just happened to come across this thread and there appears to be at least one member here who is apparently from/in Finland(?) (I am deeply sorry for this horrific event....)

Can all the Finns here raise their hands so I can know which ones you are?
I am 100% pure-bred Finn, but only stayed in Finland during summer seasons -during school breaks (I bounced between Halsua ja Helsinki where relatives live).

Terveisia Hawaiista!
(Anteeksi, minuun Suomea ei ole niin hyva...)

AloooooHa!

:fin:
 
If you check back, you'll find that was the question I asked in my first post on this thread. Therefore you can't have asked me any questions before then.
 
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Please learn the difference.
We know what basic rationality is, Claus - then there's educated common sense an always useful auxiliary to it. Distilling irrational phobic prejudice into rhetoric doesn't work because rules exist. Now look in the mirror: you declare law-abiding citizens shouldn't have firearms when no practical or rational reason exists to do this, clear social consequences would result from it, and furthermore society tolerates it. Society also tolerates purely obnoxious liabilities as alcohol. Here's what your statements amount to: People shouldn't have them because I don't want them to. Not only is this completely irrational, but almost infantile in self-centeredness and disregard.

Do you think there is a difference between posting on a forum, and how you act in situations under high pressure?
Do you think your questions make relevant sense, or are they deliberately intended to confound and confuse?
 
And yet, this is exactly what seems to happen - these killings are typically made using legally-held weapons.
Because the objective is to generate controversy and attention. The Virginia Tech incident being a perfect illustration, he took movie poster photographs complete with action hero scowl as part of his 'media kit' which was sent to MSNBC.

In the UK, all such killings have been. Why? Who knows.
See above. It's rather easy to figure out..

Again, I don't know. But the fact is, they use legal guns, and what evidence we have suggests that when legal guns are removed from the equation, the killings cease.
Firearms are a dramatic and personal (in contradiction to your thoughts) way to go, made glamorous due to film and games, and will continue to be preferred because of the attention and infamy that generates. But what happens when he uses a sword he learned to use in Bushido class or a chainsaw to do the same damage? Do we restrict dangerous and useful products to prevent trivial sensationalized incidents to compensate for cultural decay? You can't restrict lawfully owned firearms without increasing the crime rate far higher (privately owned firearms are a robbery deterrent among other things) than any trivial one would be reduced. The solution: encouraging CCW licenses and sidearms being carried around schools is, along with armed security, how to solve the problem. Disarming the populace isn't, it's simply flatly uneducated and idiotic.

If we have another one in the UK in the next few years using some other weapon or an illegal handgun, the argument will have been weakened.
In the U.K you can't defend your home or person and the authorities don't even carry sidearms, only specialized units. Obtaining pistols, shotguns or assault rifles for illegal purposes is easy as obtaining drugs. What is the point of this being slightly difficult by preventing the population from safeguarding their communities? Criminals don't obtain weapons through legal, traceable channels.

Banning is one. It may not be the best one, but in my country, it was the obvious and easy to implement one.
And this did absolutely nothing but potentially increase less sensational crime, when encouraging citizens to safeguard their communities and schools through public CCW permits and training were obvious solutions.

Not difficult, impossible. Even .22 manually-operated target pistols are illegal here. Unless you have or can develop criminal connections, you ain't getting a handgun, semi-auto rifle, or manually-operated shotgun of larger than two rounds capacity.
Which is wonderful to know in reducing the apprehension of robbing someone's house in that country, isn't it?
 
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Can all the Finns here raise their hands so I can know which ones you are?
I am 100% pure-bred Finn, but only stayed in Finland during summer seasons -during school breaks (I bounced between Halsua ja Helsinki where relatives live).

Terveisia Hawaiista!
(Anteeksi, minuun Suomea ei ole niin hyva...)

AloooooHa!

:fin:

I am a Finn. Terveisiä Hawaijille!

In shooting related news, Larsen already posted that the authorities arrested the 16-year old teen, who posted his "joke" video on YouTube. There have already been 3 false threats floating around. This one is the only that lead to arrest. The police remind, that false threats can lead to prison sentences for 1 year or longer. This is not something to joke with.
 
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If you check back, you'll find that was the question I asked in my first post on this thread. Therefore you can't have asked me any questions before then.

Who saw a school shooting happen and didn't report it?

Nobody has. Read from post #39 and onwards.

Keep up, please.

Isn't it a good thing that someone steps in, when they see threats like the one I linked to in post #123?

We know what basic rationality is, Claus - then there's educated common sense an always useful auxiliary to it. Distilling irrational phobic prejudice into rhetoric doesn't work because rules exist. Now look in the mirror: you declare law-abiding citizens shouldn't have firearms when no practical or rational reason exists to do this, clear social consequences would result from it, and furthermore society tolerates it. Society also tolerates purely obnoxious liabilities as alcohol. Here's what your statements amount to: People shouldn't have them because I don't want them to. Not only is this completely irrational, but almost infantile in self-centeredness and disregard.

Do you think your questions make relevant sense, or are they deliberately intended to confound and confuse?

What is "They didn't rush him - they stood there. It's not particularly difficult to tag 20 people in that situation." supposed to mean? That they were at fault? That they deserved getting killed?

Would you call them "massacres", yes or no?

Do you think it is the skeptical conclusion - that civilians should be able to own a gun?

Why should anyone trust you - Philip - with a gun?

I am a Finn. Terveisiä Hawaijille!

In shooting related news, Larsen already posted that the authorities arrested the 16-year old teen, who posted his "joke" video on YouTube. There have already been 3 false threats floating around. This one is the only that lead to arrest. The police remind, that false threats can lead to prison sentences for 1 year or longer. This is not something to joke with.

Sadly, to some, it is to be treated as a joke.
 
Nobody has.

Goodness me, a straight answer!
Read from post #39 and onwards.

As I stated before, I did. I saw Timhau explaining his likely actions on seeing a video in post 39, and you in post 40 accusing him of failing to do anything if he saw a shooting happen.

When called on to explain what you meant, you replied with:

Scroll up: We are talking about what timhau would do, if he saw a school shooting happening.

That may have been true in your mind, but I don't think you'd find anyone else reading this thread who agrees that this was what was being discussed.

Are you deliberately taking things to extremes to make a point, or do you have a problem with some of the subtleties of English?

There is a big difference between a shooting in progress, and a teenager posting a video in which he makes threats. You have yet to establish that only teenagers who intend to carry out these actions post such videos. In fact, you've just posted a link to an example where it was quite the opposite.
 
There is a big difference between a shooting in progress, and a teenager posting a video in which he makes threats. You have yet to establish that only teenagers who intend to carry out these actions post such videos. In fact, you've just posted a link to an example where it was quite the opposite.

I take it you don't think it is a good thing that someone steps in, when they see threats like the one I linked to in post #123.

How do you distinguish between people who intend to carry out these actions, and those who don't?
 
Stick to the point. You were, intentionally or not, equating not reporting a video with not reporting a shooting which was in progress. They are not the same thing, unless you can demonstrate that every teen who posts a video of this type then goes on a rampage; you've proved, in fact, that this is not the case. Whether one should report the video is a different question.
 
Stick to the point. You were, intentionally or not, equating not reporting a video with not reporting a shooting which was in progress. They are not the same thing, unless you can demonstrate that every teen who posts a video of this type then goes on a rampage; you've proved, in fact, that this is not the case. Whether one should report the video is a different question.

If you don't think it is a good thing that someone steps in, when they see threats like the one I linked to in post #123, how do you distinguish between people who intend to carry out these actions, and those who don't?
 
I remember being on a school magazine editorial committee, some 36 years ago. Most of the submitted items were simultaneously deeply ill informed and profoundly emotional. The END was nigh and only teenagers had noticed.
Between 15 and 19, young males in particular are swimming in hormones that boil their brains. Everything is black and white. Anyone over twenty is an old fool. The whole world is looking at ME and I have a SPOT on my chin and I'm just going to die and pull the whole universe in on top of me...

It's a bad time, even for the sane and rather dull ones. Mix that with access to weapons, without adequate training in weapons discipline and you have a potent brew.
Gods forfend teenagers ever get their hands on high explosives .
 
If you don't think it is a good thing that someone steps in, when they see threats like the one I linked to in post #123, how do you distinguish between people who intend to carry out these actions, and those who don't?

We can talk about this as soon as you can manage to distinguish between posting a video and killing people.
 

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