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Scheuer on London Attack

Bikewer said:
Scheuer has some creds as the top analyst assigned to study Bin Laden and Al Qaeda for some ten years with the CIA.

His thoughts in Imperial Hubris seem pretty much on the money to me. I'm not as sure I agree with his reccomendations on how to conduct the war on terror, but it's pretty obvious that the way it's going now is not very effective.

Events such as this always stir up a hue and cry about "destroying Islam" and other such nonsense.

There are over a billion Muslims on the face of the Earth, representing nearly every nationality and ethnic group. The vast majority of these people entirely uninvolved in any sort of violent struggle.
There are as many sects, groups, and subdivisions of Islam as there are any other mainstream faith. Some are more "fundamentalist" than others, just like other religions.

The terrorist phenomena associated with Islam are as much political movements as religious. The motivations of Moro insurgents in the Philipines may be entirely different from those in Indonesia, who may in turn be quite different than the various Arab groups.
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Wedge politics, on a global scale. Forcing moderates to choose a side, and fight on it. That's exactly what OBL wants, and where we are heading. It's pretty scary to think of the millions that are going to die in a war that we are resolutely marching towards.
 
a_unique_person said:
As I said, WWI. Both sides are to blame. I don't see OBL as a nice friendly guy who just needs a little love and understanding, but I don't see him as being the sole force driving us to the next world war, either.
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We've been driven there already. This is a world war.
 
a_unique_person said:
Wedge politics, on a global scale. Forcing moderates to choose a side, and fight on it. That's exactly what OBL wants, and where we are heading. It's pretty scary to think of the millions that are going to die in a war that we are resolutely marching towards.
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And alternative is....?
 
manny said:
.... I believe him when he says that the worst day in history was when Ataturk secularized Turkey.
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That's nothing. He still refers to the "catastrophe of Andalus" (Muslim decline on Iberian peninsula). That's 4 or 500 years ago.

I think the problem for bin Laden, et al is the western, specifically Christian, competition for power in the Muslim world. The Muslim world is anywhere that Muslims currently or ever have lived. It's an insult to the memory of Mohammed that Allah's people are enslaved by heathens.

It has nothing to do with western "values," though he may mention such things to be meant as a demeaning insult and not as a raison d'etre.
 
According to what has been reported in the popular press [and the rest of the infotainment industry] the reason for the onset of terrorism against the U.S. was Osama's disgust at the U.S. maintaining U.S. bases in Saudi following Iraq's attack against Kuwait.

So "irritated" at what he saw, Osama declared "war" against the U.S. Imperialistic Nation.

Thus 9/11.

The U.S. - a figurehead of Western Culture, needed to be brought to it's knees in order to make it "respect" the pure and holy desires of Islam as interpreted by Osama - needed to be taught a lesson on why it’s a bad thing to support the Saudi government even though they pay our salaries.

So the U.S. is attacked by terrorists to somehow “teach U.S.” a lesson that says don’t screw with our tyrants. These are “Our” tyrants so piss off. We may hate our tyrants but these people are Muslim tyrants so it’s none of your business.

Time passes...

Meanwhile back in the Holy Land [Saudi] the Mullahs seize an opportunity. Post-harmonal Mullahs are frustrated with the reigning Saudi government (OUR Government] that they transfer their hatred and despondency to the U.S. (We become Infidels) and if if kill all of the infidels we will gain power over the so-called princes who govern us and things will be cool. Also the governing Saudi Royal power-brokers won’t bother us and we won’t turn against them and cut off their sorry heads and run the country. We will let you rule as long as you support us.
So the Saudi’s acquiest and support with big $ the support of schools and training of radical Mullahs, export their teachings (either through building schools throughout the world to proclaim and support their teachings or start a grassroots effort to further militant Islam). And, sadly, they [Mullahs] still haven’t gotten to a climax but remain bitter.

[Here’s a clue - You will never get back to being a thirteen year-old! 18, 19, 20067 Virgins as a reward won’t change getting old.] ((But I digress...))

The nowhere, no opportunity lives you are leading because you have been bought off by the Saudi Royal family isn’t going to get you ◊◊◊◊.

This is not a war against religion or economic power of a state.

It’s a war against the lack of hope, and bettering one’s self, living within a society which has successfully bought off discontent by carefully playing a religion card against progress and opportunity.

The only way this will end will be for the dispossesd Islamist to overthrow the Saudi ruling family. Take control over their own destiny and stop being bought off by some Royal pack of dick heads. It will not, at first, be a total cure but once the terrorists understand that they have the right and obligation to free themselves from this dependency of the Saudi FAMILY and take control of their own lives there will be a move towards democracy and representation.

The only voices currently heard is one of bitterness by the dispossessed, the ignored, the Islamist with the meaningless degree in “law” who cannot find a job or support his family. Only obligation to family and respect - personal respect recognized by the State - will quiet the Mullahs and move to a more secular society.
 
a_unique_person said:
Been driven? You've been driving there as fast as you can in an SUV with Bush at the wheel.
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It's funny that all the attacks that happened were planned and some were executed pre-Bush. So don't give me that sh**t.
 
a_unique_person said:
A that pits the 'muslim' nations against the 'xian' nations. As I am reminded here, the only mistake in Vietnam was not enough Vietnamese were killed.
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IF only vietnam had ONE mistake...

AUP, I'm waiting for the alternative to the current situation.
 
Grammatron said:
IF only vietnam had ONE mistake...

AUP, I'm waiting for the alternative to the current situation.
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If the US had not invaded Iraq, if it had pulled out forces from the middle-east, the basis on which terrorism breeds would be removed to a large extent.

Terrorism, IMHO, is often based on a just cause. The IRA, for example. England should not have ever invaded Ireland for Imperialist reasons. It is still living with the conseqences.

Take away the basic injustice, the terrorists have no basis on which to ply their trade. Without a measure popular support, they cannot exist.

As to what can we do now, I don't have any idea, we may well have passed the point of no return, and are doomed to a bloody, vicious and protracted battle, in which millions of innocent people will die.

The roller coaster ride has started, you can't get off till the end.
 
a_unique_person said:


Terrorism, IMHO, is often based on a just cause.
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So what do you think OBL's "just cause" is?

a_unique_person said:
If it does come to a war that big, Israel wouldn't survive anyway. It is peace that will ensure Israel's survival, not war.
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If it wouldn't survive anyway...then there is no harm in sacrificing it?
 
a_unique_person said:
If the US had not invaded Iraq, if it had pulled out forces from the middle-east, the basis on which terrorism breeds would be removed to a large extent.

Terrorism, IMHO, is often based on a just cause. The IRA, for example. England should not have ever invaded Ireland for Imperialist reasons. It is still living with the conseqences.

Take away the basic injustice, the terrorists have no basis on which to ply their trade. Without a measure popular support, they cannot exist.

As to what can we do now, I don't have any idea, we may well have passed the point of no return, and are doomed to a bloody, vicious and protracted battle, in which millions of innocent people will die.

The roller coaster ride has started, you can't get off till the end.
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Spare me your one liners please.

You can't be serious when you say we should move out of "their" land. Which "they" are you talking about? How is Osama related to Iraq any more than we are? How about Afghanistan? Palestine? What gives him the right to speak out for those cultures?
 
Originally posted by a_unique_person
World War One. Imperialism leading to needless war.
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You have such a narrow focus on your understanding of history. Is "Imperialism" always the engine powering every evil or do you ever consider other factors?

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Imperialism, projecting foreign power into sovereign countries.
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Such a broad definition. You no longer have to conquer another country and seize their territory, now it's enough just to project power into them?

Is pressuring a nation to sign a treaty Imperialism?
 
Grammatron said:
Spare me your one liners please.

You can't be serious when you say we should move out of "their" land. Which "they" are you talking about? How is Osama related to Iraq any more than we are? How about Afghanistan? Palestine? What gives him the right to speak out for those cultures?
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What right did the US have to say it could speak for the people of Iraq?
 
a_unique_person said:
What right did the US have to say it could speak for the people of Iraq?
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Right now they're speaking for themselves. Would you prefer the insurgents speak for them?

And you avoided the question: By what right does OBL speak for them?
 
Mycroft said:
Right now they're speaking for themselves. Would you prefer the insurgents speak for them?

And you avoided the question: By what right does OBL speak for them?
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I didn't say he did, but there seems to be some extremist forces on both sides forcing a wedge between the middle ground.
 
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