Sceptics re:9/11 only: viable, unanswered questions regarding 9/11

[firecoins]

Wow! I had never heard that. Do you have a specific citation?

read the 9/11 commission report. its all in there.

edit:

http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report_Ch1.htm

United 93 and the Shootdown Order
On the morning of 9/11, the President and Vice President stayed in contact not by an open line of communication but through a series of calls. The President told us he was frustrated with the poor communications that morning. He could not reach key officials, including Secretary Rumsfeld, for a period of time. The line to the White House shelter conference room-and the Vice President-kept cutting off.212

 

[Ladewig]

read the 9/11 commission report. its all in there.

edit:

http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report_Ch1.htm

United 93 and the Shootdown Order
On the morning of 9/11, the President and Vice President stayed in contact not by an open line of communication but through a series of calls. The President told us he was frustrated with the poor communications that morning. He could not reach key officials, including Secretary Rumsfeld, for a period of time. The line to the White House shelter conference room-and the Vice President-kept cutting off.212

I think there is a world of difference between saying "There were reports that the phone on Air Force 1 did not work" and saying that the phone worked sporadically. Your quoted citation states that they "stayed in contact." Bush was not out of the loop.

That being said, I can believe that Cheney gave the shootdown order; but I can also believe that after being briefed, Bush gave the shootdown order.

 

[firecoins]

I think there is a world of difference between saying "There were reports that the phone on Air Force 1 did not work" and saying that the phone worked sporadically. Your quoted citation states that they "stayed in contact." Bush was not out of the loop.

Bush was calling from Air Force 1. His phone kept cutting out. So it was working?

Lets break my quote down.

The President told us he was frustrated with the poor communications that morning.

Bush was upset that he couldn't keep an open line of communication.

He could not reach key officials, including Secretary Rumsfeld, for a period of time.

Rumsfeld was at the Pentagon plane crash site and was out of contact. He was the only other person who could give a shoot down order other than himself.

The line to the White House shelter conference room-and the Vice President-kept cutting off

Pres. Bush was calling from Air Force 1. The line kept cutting out. Pres Bush did not have a land line phone. The White House certainly did.

 

[firecoins]

This is a larger section

The President's motorcade departed at 9:35, and arrived at the airport between 9:42 and 9:45. During the ride the President learned about the attack on the Pentagon. He boarded the aircraft, asked the Secret Service about the safety of his family, and called the Vice President. According to notes of the call, at about 9:45 the President told the Vice President: "Sounds like we have a minor war going on here, I heard about the Pentagon. We're at war . . . some-body's going to pay."206
About this time, Card, the lead Secret Service agent, the President's military aide, and the pilot were conferring on a possible destination for Air Force One. The Secret Service agent felt strongly that the situation in Washington was too unstable for the President to return there, and Card agreed. The President strongly wanted to return to Washington and only grudgingly agreed to go elsewhere. The issue was still undecided when the President conferred with the Vice President at about the time Air Force One was taking off. The Vice President recalled urging the President not to return to Washington. Air Force One departed at about 9:54 without any fixed destination. The objective was to get up in the air-as fast and as high as possible-and then decide where to go.207
At 9:33, the tower supervisor at Reagan National Airport picked up a hotline to the Secret Service and told the Service's operations center that "an aircraft [is] coming at you and not talking with us." This was the first specific report to the Secret Service of a direct threat to the White House. No move was made to evacuate the Vice President at this time. As the officer who took the call explained, "[I was] about to push the alert button when the tower advised that the aircraft was turning south and approaching Reagan National Airport."208
American 77 began turning south, away from the White House, at 9:34. It continued heading south for roughly a minute, before turning west and beginning to circle back. This news prompted the Secret Service to order the immediate evacuation of the Vice President just before 9:36. Agents propelled him out of his chair and told him he had to get to the bunker. The Vice President entered the underground tunnel leading to the shelter at 9:37.209
Once inside, Vice President Cheney and the agents paused in an area of the tunnel that had a secure phone, a bench, and television. The Vice President asked to speak to the President, but it took time for the call to be connected. He learned in the tunnel that the Pentagon had been hit, and he saw television coverage of smoke coming from the building.210
The Secret Service logged Mrs. Cheney's arrival at the White House at 9:52, and she joined her husband in the tunnel. According to contemporaneous notes, at 9:55 the Vice President was still on the phone with the President advising that three planes were missing and one had hit the Pentagon. We believe this is the same call in which the Vice President urged the President not to return to Washington. After the call ended, Mrs. Cheney and the Vice President moved from the tunnel to the shelter conference room.211 United 93 and the Shootdown Order
On the morning of 9/11, the President and Vice President stayed in contact not by an open line of communication but through a series of calls. The President told us he was frustrated with the poor communications that morning. He could not reach key officials, including Secretary Rumsfeld, for a period of time. The line to the White House shelter conference room-and the Vice President-kept cutting off.212

And Note 212 which is referred to in the last paragraph.

212. On communications problems, see, e.g., President Bush and Vice President Cheney meeting (Apr. 29, 2004). On lack of an open line, see, e.g., Deborah Loewer meeting (Feb. 6, 2004).

I am looking for Deborah's testimony right now.

 

[gumboot]

Yeah, this is a major pet peeeve of mine too. Many people who say "shoot 'em down!" seem to think that you can just vaporize a plane in the sky, like in a video game or something, and they don't consider that it's inevitably going to hit something, and that something might well include people.

I think the idea would have been to shoot down the airliners before they reached a built up urban area. Certainly there's still a risk of hitting people, but statistically it becomes much less likely, and less people would be killed - look at Lockerbie for example.

-Gumboot

 

[Ladewig]

Bush was calling from Air Force 1. His phone kept cutting out. So it was working?

Yes: it was working intermittently. "the President and Vice President stayed in contact not by an open line of communication but through a series of calls." If they stayed in contact through a series of phone calls then the phone was working to some extent. I think the line from post #15: "Bush was in the classroom and Air Force 1 where phones didn't work" is misleading because 1) Bush held phone converstations from the limo on the way to the airport and 2) there were some phone calls made from Air Force 1.

That being said, I will agree that it is probably more likely than not that Cheney made the decision and then told the air force that he had authorization from Bush. I cannot be certain that it happened that way but given Bush's style, Cheney's style, their refusal to be placed under oath, their refusal to answer questions independently, and their refusal to answer questions if there were recording devices in the room, I think there is circumstantial evidence that the order was given before Bush was asked to give the order.

 

[gumboot]

That being said, I will agree that it is probably more likely than not that Cheney made the decision and then told the air force that he had authorization from Bush. I cannot be certain that it happened that way but given Bush's style, Cheney's style, their refusal to be placed under oath, their refusal to answer questions independently, and their refusal to answer questions if there were recording devices in the room, I think there is circumstantial evidence that the order was given before Bush was asked to give the order.

That's quite an interesting twist that I have never thought of.

If Cheney gave the order and said Bush had given it, when he hadn't, that's a pretty major crime on his part. Would it be treason? I'm not sure what it'd be. Essentially he has usurped the power of President.

Of course, he needed to do it. And it was the right move. Would explain their unwillingness to be investigated too closely. Really wouldn't make the CTers happy.

-Gumboot