Sam Harris' The Moral Landscape Challenge

Anyone who manages to argue that torture is moral is not someone I'd take moral lessons from.

That's my issue with Sam Harris in a nutshell.

He says you can reach moral conclusions through logic and reason, then reaches completely immoral conclusions. Either his thesis is wrong, or his methodology is wrong; either way, his version of morality is not something I want any part of.
 
Unfortunately, I haven't read the book. Do Harris's methods provide an answer to whether or not we should push that guy off the bridge to stop the runaway tram from killing five other people?

If not, why not? If morality can be derived from a metric on an outcome space, would it not reliably confirm that the course of action resulting in one death is better than the one resulting in five?

Hmm, since he wants a disproof, maybe a computing theory approach would work. Set up a contrived but physically possible situation where the decision that will lead to the morally preferable outcome is incomputable.
 
That's my issue with Sam Harris in a nutshell.

He says you can reach moral conclusions through logic and reason, then reaches completely immoral conclusions. Either his thesis is wrong, or his methodology is wrong; either way, his version of morality is not something I want any part of.

He seems to be defining moral as that which brings the greatest good to the greatest number of people, problem is that one of the definitions of good is "a. Of moral excellence; upright: a good person." so his definition becomes:

moral is that which is moral.

ETA: If anyone is thinking of writing an essay feel free to use anything I post.
 
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Unfortunately, I haven't read the book. Do Harris's methods provide an answer to whether or not we should push that guy off the bridge to stop the runaway tram from killing five other people?

If not, why not? If morality can be derived from a metric on an outcome space, would it not reliably confirm that the course of action resulting in one death is better than the one resulting in five?

Hmm, since he wants a disproof, maybe a computing theory approach would work. Set up a contrived but physically possible situation where the decision that will lead to the morally preferable outcome is incomputable.

Pretty sure he'd say "Yes, it's clearly better for one person to die than 5."

That's not my problem with his opinion here, though. My issue is that he's arguing that morals and values are facts. He waters it down a bit here with the "depends on" language:

Morality and values depend on the existence of conscious minds—and specifically on the fact that such minds can experience various forms of well-being and suffering in this universe. Conscious minds and their states are natural phenomena, fully constrained by the laws of the universe (whatever these turn out to be in the end). Therefore, questions of morality and values must have right and wrong answers that fall within the purview of science (in principle, if not in practice). Consequently, some people and cultures will be right (to a greater or lesser degree), and some will be wrong, with respect to what they deem important in life.

...but he seems to see human suffering as "bad" in an axiomatic way. While I agree intuitively, I'm not going to claim it's honestly logical.

Also, he's apparently using his own definition of "values." Pro-lifers value embryos even when they don't believe they can suffer. Social darwinists value strength for its effectiveness in achieving their idea of "progress", regardless of the suffering of the human "losers".
 
You argument falls down immediately upon examination. If your argument was correct then you would agree that the actions of mass murderers, sexual offenders, thieves, etc, are moral because they are indifferent to the suffering of their victims.

Individuals don't decide morality, societies/populations do. The problem you point out is one that has been addressed many times as in-groups have grown. When clans gave way to tribes and then to cities, nations, and finally empires, moral viewpoints were forced to change.

Instead of me replying to you replying to what you think my argument is to I think Harris's argument is, let me try restarting. But Harris and I would disagree that populations decide morality, at least I think so :p .

This is Harris's argument:

Morality and values depend on the existence of conscious minds—and specifically on the fact that such minds can experience various forms of well-being and suffering in this universe. Conscious minds and their states are natural phenomena, fully constrained by the laws of the universe (whatever these turn out to be in the end). Therefore, questions of morality and values must have right and wrong answers that fall within the purview of science (in principle, if not in practice). Consequently, some people and cultures will be right (to a greater or lesser degree), and some will be wrong, with respect to what they deem important in life.

For ease of reading, would rephrase it like this:

1. We are conscious beings, and our mental states can be studied scientifically.
2. The state of well-being is self-evidently valued over the state of suffering.
3. We can use science to determine how to maximize well-being/minimize suffering.
4. Therefore science can determine our moral values, which are objectively and universally right or wrong.

Now, I think he is playing loose and hiding a lot of his arguments. For example, #2 just doesn't cut it. He plays the incredulity card and proposes bizarre hypotheticals to try to get us to admit that we value well-being. The problem is he needs to demonstrate that the value for universal well-being is the sole and overriding value we should have and follow in morality. There is an ought here, not an is. If I am not a boddhisattva that values the suffering of all living creatures equally, he needs to be able to tell me why I should. He can't. He can only point to his maximum suffering or word swapping for health hypothetical "obviousness".

You can see it in his response to critics (my arguments are down in the Value and Persuasion Problems). He just appeals again and again to "science involves assumptions, so nothing is wrong with me assuming this ought value" and "it is just obvious that we wouldn't say the same about X".

Here is my interpretation of what his argument actually is:

1. We value well-being self-evidently and obviously.
2. We (should) value the well-being of others equally. This is also self-evident and obvious.
3. The value of well-being overrides any other value we may have. Don't ask why or how.
4. We can study well-being well enough scientifically.
5. Therefore we can engage in welfare utilitarianism scientifically.
6. Act/rule? Predictive? Aggregative variety? Motives? What on Earth are you talking about? This is a completely unique system I made up just now and there are not decades of criticism!
6. Therefore all you moral philosophers are wrong, values are facts, there is no is-ought distinction, look at me, look at me!

(If you doubt any of the steps, I will tell you you are self-evidently wrong and are being a stupid-head. Would you rather live in a world of maximum misery? What if I replaced the word "well-being" with "health", huh?)
 
We should crowdsource a challenge and split the $20k if we can convince him to alter his argument. :cool::p


Also, he says:

As I point out in my book, science is based on values that must be presupposed—like the desire to understand the universe, a respect for evidence and logical coherence, etc. One who doesn’t share these values cannot do science. But nor can he attack the presuppositions of science in a way that anyone should find compelling. Scientists need not apologize for presupposing the value of evidence, nor does this presupposition render science unscientific.

Scientists don't presuppose the value of evidence; they observe it. His argument is the crux of Christian "presuppositional apologetics" and libertarian "natural rights" woo.
 
We should crowdsource a challenge and split the $20k if we can convince him to alter his argument. :cool::p


Also, he says:



Scientists don't presuppose the value of evidence; they observe it. His argument is the crux of Christian "presuppositional apologetics" and libertarian "natural rights" woo.

It seems to me that Harris favours a greater good/utilitarian calculus if only in principle. But one of the presuppositions is that greater good should always trump other concerns such as justice.

If, for example, it could be demonstrated that violent crime could be eradicated by periodically snatching someone off the street, accusing them of a violent crime and then force-feeding them to a pack of lions and broadcasting it on international TV to the merriment of millions, then would it be an ethical thing to do if it creates greater pleasure and well-being for more people than not doing it?
 
It seems to me that Harris favours a greater good/utilitarian calculus if only in principle. But one of the presuppositions is that greater good should always trump other concerns such as justice.

If, for example, it could be demonstrated that violent crime could be eradicated by periodically snatching someone off the street, accusing them of a violent crime and then force-feeding them to a pack of lions and broadcasting it on international TV to the merriment of millions, then would it be an ethical thing to do if it creates greater pleasure and well-being for more people than not doing it?

He's pretty ok with the fact that this is only his "in principal" position, and that there are various metrics to judge well-being by.
 
Where does he argue this?

He thinks torture is OK if the stakes are high enough.

While the most realistic version of the ticking bomb case may not persuade everyone that torture is ethically acceptable, adding further embellishments seems to awaken the Grand Inquisitor in most of us. If a conventional explosion doesn't move you, consider a nuclear bomb hidden in midtown Manhattan. If bombs seem too impersonal an evil, picture your seven-year-old daughter being slowly asphyxiated in a warehouse just five minutes away, while the man in your custody holds the keys to her release. If your daughter won't tip the scales, then add the daughters of every couple for a thousand miles--millions of little girls have, by some perverse negligence on the part of our government, come under the control of an evil genius who now sits before you in shackles. Clearly, the consequences of one person's uncooperativeness can be made so grave, and his malevolence and culpability so transparent, as to stir even a self-hating moral relativist from his dogmatic slumbers.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-harris/in-defense-of-torture_b_8993.html
 
I am surprised to see this many people argue against utilitarianism/consequentialism. I mean, critique against Harris' book or way of arguing, sure. But why on earth should so many atheists throw out religion yet keep the virtue ethics?
 
I am surprised to see this many people argue against utilitarianism/consequentialism. I mean, critique against Harris' book or way of arguing, sure. But why on earth should so many atheists throw out religion yet keep the virtue ethics?

Virtue ethics is an actual branch distinct from deontological and consequentialist. Hasn't been popular since the Greeks, though.

I don't think it is his utilitarianism that gets the response, but his trollish claims around it (science can determine values, there is no is/ought distinction, etc.).
 
I meant the opposition he gets for claiming that torture could, in a hypothetical situation, possibly be acceptable. It seems he gets a lot of flak for that (though admittedly, only from a couple of people in this thread specifically) on basis of a rejection of consequentialism, which surprises me.

The is-ought problem is not really a problem, since in fact the only worthwhile morality (ought) is directly derived from reality (is). The only alternative is bogus circular moral reasoning, which is strangely popular. However, I will yield that Harris did not properly address it and just handwaved it away, which does not do him credit.
 
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The is-ought problem is not really a problem, since in fact the only worthwhile morality (ought) is directly derived from reality (is).

What is "worthwhile morality"?

The only alternative is bogus circular moral reasoning, which is strangely popular.

No, another alternative is just accepting the fact that morals and values are subjective.
 
I meant the opposition he gets for claiming that torture could, in a hypothetical situation, possibly be acceptable. It seems he gets a lot of flak for that (though admittedly, only from a couple of people in this thread specifically) on basis of a rejection of consequentialism, which surprises me.

The is-ought problem is not really a problem, since in fact the only worthwhile morality (ought) is directly derived from reality (is). The only alternative is bogus circular moral reasoning, which is strangely popular. However, I will yield that Harris did not properly address it and just handwaved it away, which does not do him credit.

It's not a hypothetical situation:

Which way should the balance swing? Assuming that we want to maintain a coherent ethical position on these matters, this appears to be a circumstance of forced choice: if we are willing to drop bombs, or even risk that rifle rounds might go astray, we should be willing to torture a certain class of criminal suspects and military prisoners; if we are unwilling to torture, we should be unwilling to wage modern war
 
At least there he said "Assuming that we want to maintain a coherent ethical position..."

When it comes to state-sanctioned torture, I'm ok with some degree of a lack of internal coherence. I'd rather be a torture-opposing hypocrite than a torture-supporting utilitarian.
 
No, another alternative is just accepting the fact that morals and values are subjective.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. Subjective and relative.

But the science of morality has an out here too. If you accept that subjectivity is itself based on biology and material facts, we are back to a moral calculus, only the input is different and the "machine" doing the processing is different. One would very well expect different judgements, even though there is a universal (by way of materialism) underlying it all.

There is a good parallel with pain.
 
I wholeheartedly agree with this. Subjective and relative.

But the science of morality has an out here too. If you accept that subjectivity is itself based on biology and material facts, we are back to a moral calculus, only the input is different and the "machine" doing the processing is different. One would very well expect different judgements, even though there is a universal (by way of materialism) underlying it all.

There is a good parallel with pain.

Isn't the "moral calculus" only going to be able to show (under hypothetical ideal conditions) what the majority opinion is, and why? I mean, even if every person on Earth agreed, that in and of itself wouldn't mean moral position X was "true" or reflective of objective reality. It would just mean "people feel X" and explain the biological/physical process that produced that.

It's sort of like the (speculative) science of physical attractiveness. Maybe Western women wear lipstick and blush because it emulates sexual arousal and men respond to it. Maybe that gives a mate-selecting advantage. But if so, does that really mean it enhances "beauty", or is "beauty" still an inherently subjective opinion?
 
Isn't the "moral calculus" only going to be able to show (under hypothetical ideal conditions) what the majority opinion is, and why? I mean, even if every person on Earth agreed, that in and of itself wouldn't mean moral position X was "true" or reflective of objective reality. It would just mean "people feel X" and explain the biological/physical process that produced that.

It's sort of like the (speculative) science of physical attractiveness. Maybe Western women wear lipstick and blush because it emulates sexual arousal and men respond to it. Maybe that gives a mate-selecting advantage. But if so, does that really mean it enhances "beauty", or is "beauty" still an inherently subjective opinion?

Both. It's a subjective opinion made by an objective instrument - me.

The sweet thing is that if you ask, "What is the instrument measuring then?"

My answer is, "Nothing at all." The instrument is just itself, a fact about the world. There doesn't have to be beauty "out there" at all. It may be out there, in the sense that I can say I saw/measured a tree. But it doesn't have to be. I see a sunset. I remark on its beauty. I am communicating my state. An imagined sunset would do as well as a real one.

The critical fact is the state of the person/instrument, not necessarily the input from outside. Why? Because our measuring instrument isn't recording single or even a few facts - it's the sum total of all the inputs (internal and external) and limits on the instrument itself (biological, physical).

Man is the measure of all things. Including man.

The interesting thing, with morality as well as beauty, is that I cannot know ahead of time what my judgement will be. I can only guess.

So, when Harris or anyone else proposes a thought problem about moral choice, I cannot know until I am in that situation and I find out what the results of the measurement actually are. Would I kill one to save many? I don't know - it's never happened to me.
 
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