Sam Harris on "Islamophobia"

[DC]

Therein lies the paradox.

How to criticise Islamic theology without offending Muslims? The ideology does not exist outwith reality it is people who expound it.

Part of shutting down the debate is the accusation of Islamaphobia or racism.
It has been thrown around too often. What I have said I have said before and I been told I was Islamaphobic.

I think 'Liberals' find it difficult for example to criticise misogyny or homophobia in the ideology is because understandably they do not want to appear to be on the same side as appalling real right wing bigots.

they can be as offended as they want. why should we care?

im not one that says repsect other religions, im one that say, when you want to critique a Religion, you better know what you are talking about. and actually critique real things and not a fantasy construct like the islamaphobes ala Pipes etc do.

 

[Dcdrac]

I happen to work with and know a lot of muslims (they are not called moslems) and we often debate religion, islam christianity without any of us resorting to death threats or taking offence.

 

[Octavo]

im not one that says repsect other religions, im one that say, when you want to critique a Religion, you better know what you are talking about. and actually critique real things and not a fantasy construct like the islamaphobes ala Pipes etc do.

That's all well and good and I agree with you, however the reality of the situation (IMHO) is that you cannot effectively critique Islam. If you dare to do so, you risk death threats, violent protests and almost certainly the label of Islamophobe.

 

[Dcdrac]

That's all well and good and I agree with you, however the reality of the situation (IMHO) is that you cannot effectively critique Islam. If you dare to do so, you risk death threats, violent protests and almost certainly the label of Islamophobe.

Absolute tosh I do it every day with colleagues at work, who also critique my athesiam none of us have come to blows yet.

 

[Mister Agenda]

The Mujahideen and the Taliban are two separate entities - the latter kicked the former out after the civil war among the warlords followed the Red Army's retreat.

Yes, I was not implying that the West supplied arms to the Taliban directly, but I can see how that needed clarification. Thank you.

 

[DC]

That's all well and good and I agree with you, however the reality of the situation (IMHO) is that you cannot effectively critique Islam. If you dare to do so, you risk death threats, violent protests and almost certainly the label of Islamophobe.

i guess that is true for many islamic countries. but not so in the Country i am living. and i do it very often at work. where the majority is actually Moslems. and the worst i got to hear was something like , oh you Atheists... and twisting eyes.

 

[tsig]

That's all well and good and I agree with you, however the reality of the situation (IMHO) is that you cannot effectively critique Islam. If you dare to do so, you risk death threats, violent protests and almost certainly the label of Islamophobe.

The Muslim apologists are ignoring the elephant in the room, rioting over cartoons, beheadings and suicide bombings that happen every day. They also seem to think that knowing a few Muslims makes them experts in all thing Islam.

^^^This will be called Islamophobic.^^^

 

[Craig B]

I believe that most moderate Muslims just want to live peacefully bettering their family's life. They will acknowledge their religion and submit to it. They will choose to ignore the violent side as best they can. An astonishing number have never read the Quran and Hadiths relying on Scholars to do it for them.

That is the case for Christianity also. Especially for the RCC which until recently more or less forbade the reading by lay adherents of the Scriptures. They relied entirely on "Scholars".

Unfortunately they are not controlling the narrative. So we have address those who are and what is the foundation of their claims.
That is the Quran and Hadiths which are incompatible with a modern secular society.
It is pronounced as perfect and provides religious belief, social behavior rules, political strictures, economic disciplines it even intrudes into sexual behavior and dietary needs.

Is this a joke? You have told us,

Islam, amongst all the major religions, is unique.

But what you have just related is in no way unique. Dietary needs? Islam unique!? What can you possibly mean? Sexual behaviour? Islam unique!? What can you possibly mean? I have cited the words is a Muslim member of the city council here, in post 277:

... certain elements of sex education in schools, are motivating young, innocent children to indulge in premature sex that is resulting in teenage pregnancies. As if that were not enough, gay sex education is being added to the sex curriculum in schools. This will encourage experiments with homosexuality among young children and add to the growing creed of homosexuality.

Is this sort of sexual preoccupation unique to Islam? You astound me! A Roman Catholic, or minister in the Free Church of Scotland could in good conscience say exactly these words.

Here are extracts from the response of the Free Church to the Scottish Government's request for its opinion on proposed Civil Partnership legislation.

We regard the Scottish Government’s stated wish to go forward to legislating on this subject extremely dangerous and subversive of Christian morality and harmful to the foundations of our society which are so intimately bound up with the divinely ordained institution of marriage ... We are under oath to preach and declare the whole counsel of God which specifically condemns homosexuality which this consultation process pretends to legitimise. Our authority in such matters is only the Word of God and we refer the Scottish Government to its plain statements condemning homosexuality. (Genesis 13:13; 18:20, 21; 19:4 – 7, 24, 25; Leviticus 18:22; 20:13; Isaiah 3:9; Romans 1:24 – 27; 1 Corinthians 6:9, 10; 2 Peter 2:6 – 10; Jude 7, 8)

"Central texts"!

We reject utterly the legal right of any government to redefine marriage as it pleases or even as it may please the democratic majority of the people. <snip further diatribe> We exhort all concerned in this process to beware of inviting the deserved judgement of God on our nation by such actions and decisions as would pretend to validate what God has condemned as abomination and wickedness.

"Abomination" is a favourite Free Church term.

It is clear that in spite of the contents of their holy texts, Catholics and Jews (and Free Church members) can adapt themselves to modern democratic society, and when Muslims find themselves in one, they can do likewise, as I have striven to show, and to relate from my own experiences. So, what adherents of one religion can do, so can those of another, texts or no texts. And it is this we must try to achieve. Or better, place no obstacle in the way of Muslims who are trying to achieve it. We should not be telling them, if you were a true Muslim you should be calling for all non-Muslims to be tortured to death. If they say no, then fine; all to the good. No it is.

To ignore its central texts is to ignore its reason for existence.

No. Just about everyone ignores the specific content of the Torah, and they continue to have reason to exist as Jews and Christians.

 

[DC]

The Muslim apologists are ignoring the elephant in the room, rioting over cartoons, beheadings and suicide bombings that happen every day. They also seem to think that knowing a few Muslims makes them experts in all thing Islam.

^^^This will be called Islamophobic.^^^

that is a blatant lie, i several times in this thread said i Support fighting radicals even with war machinery. i am not ignoring this, but i am realizing that this is not the majority of Moslems, but a small minority.

i am not expert in Islam, but i do have People i consider friends, that are actually experts, one of them studied the Koran and the hadits from more than 14 years (yeah i know, what a waste of time, like studiying Star Wars for 14 ears). and is one of the Imams in the part of the City i am living in, a part that is populated by mostly foreigners and many of them Moslems from many different countries.

 

[raff55]

Absolute tosh I do it every day with colleagues at work, who also critique my athesiam none of us have come to blows yet.

Sadly its not my experience.

Would a conversation with Michael Adebowale or Anjem Choudary affect your view any ?

 

[Dcdrac]

The Muslim apologists are ignoring the elephant in the room, rioting over cartoons, beheadings and suicide bombings that happen every day. They also seem to think that knowing a few Muslims makes them experts in all thing Islam.

^^^This will be called Islamophobic.^^^

Taking the example of the minority and their actions and using them to say an entire group of people behave like this is simply applying guilt group to the majority who are innocent of these things.

I have actually been to a mosque and discussed islamic beleifs with a iamams it was cordial and we agreed to differ.

 

[Dcdrac]

Absolute tosh I do it every day with colleagues at work, who also critique my athesiam none of us have come to blows yet.

Sadly its not my experience.

Would a conversation with Michael Adebowale or Anjem Choudary affect your view any ?

Once again applying group guilt to a whole group of people using the actions of a couple of fanatics.

On a doctrinal level and this I know because I have read the Qu'ran, as soon as they murdered that solider in pure islamic doctrine they stopped being muslims.

Like in christianity murder is a sin in islam.

 

[raff55]

CraigB

Much as enjoy your homely little stories about Glasgow what has this got to do with this Islamic topic?

Read for comprehension; It is unique today in the level of Violence.

 

[Mister Agenda]

metacristi

'The first step is to renounce the innerancy of the Quran'

Reply by DC..

'do you demand the same from other religions?'

As you know Islam, you will obviously know the central tenant of Islam. It is that the Quran is regarded as incorruptible, complete and Gods message for all people in all societies and for all ages. To not believe this is blasphemy and attendant to righteous punishment.
It is the elephant in the room. The Quarn cannot be changed.

The central tenet of Islam is that God is one, and Mohammed is his prophet. The Bible makes similar claims to truth and changelessness, and like the Bible, this doesn't prevent the Qu'ran from being re-interpreted and cherry-picked.

It is exactly this appeal to the Qu'ran as inviolable that distinguishes Islamophobia from legitimate criticism of Islam--not that you're an Islamophobe, but you're headed down the same rabbit hole. It's equivalent to claiming that Jews must follow Talion, because it says so in the Bible and the Bible says it's the word of God. A reasonable critique of Islam might observe that Salafism seems to be a common characteristic of Sunni terrorist organizations and advocate for Salafism being discouraged, perhaps by lending support to peaceful organizations based on rival schools. It's a specific observation with a suggested course of action that can be carried out.

More interpretation and cherry-picking is exactly what Islam needs, but the Islamophobe doesn't acknowledge that sort of thing as 'legitimate Islam', as though they trump Islamic scholars and their followers when it comes to Islamic authenticity.

 

[DC]

Absolute tosh I do it every day with colleagues at work, who also critique my athesiam none of us have come to blows yet.

Sadly its not my experience.
Would a conversation with Michael Adebowale or Anjem Choudary affect your view any ?

what experiances did you have then?

 

[DC]

Once again applying group guilt to a whole group of people using the actions of a couple of fanatics.

On a doctrinal level and this I know because I have read the Qu'ran, as soon as they murdered that solider in pure islamic doctrine they stopped being muslims.

Like in christianity murder is a sin in islam.

well this is also how i understood the Koran, but, on the other Hand , it all Comes down as to whom you regard as innocent. and as they did not regard the soldier as innocent, they see their deed justified in the Koran.

 

[raff55]

'Once again applying group guilt to a whole group of people using the actions of a couple of fanatics.

On a doctrinal level and this I know because I have read the Qu'ran, as soon as they murdered that solider in pure islamic doctrine they stopped being muslims.

Like in christianity murder is a sin in islam.'

Your interpretation is different from theirs and many other previous martyrs.
I too have read the Qu'ran and many, many Hadiths. Crucially they did not see it as murder but as war. They are confident of there place in paradise. Where did they and others get this idea from ?

 

[Mister Agenda]

The Muslim apologists are ignoring the elephant in the room, rioting over cartoons, beheadings and suicide bombings that happen every day. They also seem to think that knowing a few Muslims makes them experts in all thing Islam.

^^^This will be called Islamophobic.^^^

The most Islamophobic things about this post are labeling anyone who might disagree with it as Muslim apologists and whining in advance that it will be called Islamophobic.

Besides those gems, what most makes the post incorrect is the word 'ignoring'.

 

[Dcdrac]

'Once again applying group guilt to a whole group of people using the actions of a couple of fanatics.

On a doctrinal level and this I know because I have read the Qu'ran, as soon as they murdered that solider in pure islamic doctrine they stopped being muslims.

Like in christianity murder is a sin in islam.'

Your interpretation is different from theirs and many other previous martyrs.
I too have read the Qu'ran and many, many Hadiths. Crucially they did not see it as murder but as war. They are confident of there place in paradise. Where did they and others get this idea from ?

This largely drawn from Hadiths, the validity of which is questioned by many islamic scholars, try talking with them before making blanket assertions about islam and muslims.

For the record I am aethiast but I do not approve of scapegoating entire groups of people just because of the actions of a handful of nutters.

You find as many interpretations of the hadiths across the differing scholars you talk with.

 

[raff55]

what experiences did you have then?

I was in London in 1998 when thousands of bearded men burned a book they hadn't read and demanded the punishment of the author.

I listened in disbelief to a musician I had admired calling for his death.

I have tried to understand why. I have read the quran and engaged in debate with many Muslims.
I was again in London last year and encountered a 'Muslim Patrol'.

I do not know how many times I have to say it but here I go again I know most Muslims just want to live in peace but that is not who we are dealing with.