Sam Harris on "Islamophobia"

Octavo said:
Quick question - do you believe there are any Islamophobes participating in this thread?
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yes, metacristi is one. he bases his knowledge about Islam on some of the most famous islamophobes like Pipes for example.
 
raff55 said:
Am I one? I have criticised Islamic ideology.

If not can you tell me why I'm not.
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i don't know, what have you critizised? is it here in this thread?

ETA: what i saw from you in this thread did not strike me as islamophobe. with that your post about Moslems and their believe that the koran is perfect is meant. i don't see that as islamaphobe.
 
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I will criticize any religion if all its adherents actively call for the death of others on doctrinal grounds whatever the religion.

Tricky thing is I have yet to meet any adherent to a major religion that does call for another persons death on doctrinal grounds.
 
i don't know, what have you critizised? is it here in this thread?

My post

It is this perfectionism that is the modern problem with Islam. Its ideology can provide sustaining legitimacy for a peaceful course or a violent one. Both are equally valid. So in this regard and at this time in our history Islam, amongst all the major religions, is unique.

Perhaps I was too circumspect with this. I will expand. I think Islam is unique today because too many of its followers will act violently and with frequency.

'Its ideology can provide sustaining legitimacy for a peaceful course or a violent one'. So I would submit it is a duty to examine the texts and if found wanting to call it for what it is. The exhortations to violence are valid from the texts whether or not moderate moslems choose to ignore them.
You are no more qualified to tell others what Islam is than Osama Bin laden was. There is no single voice.

Am I an Islamaphobe?
 
metacristi said:
But ask now your imam if in a society where muslims are in a majority can he tolerate people who drink beer and eat pork & play music loud during Ramadan (no offense intended against muslims, just a way of life)?
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Not all Muslim countries are like Saudi Arabia, mate. I've been to Turkey lots of times during Ramadan, and when I'm there I usually drink beer and play loud music. With other Turks. I also know where to find pork when I'm there, as I sometimes enjoy ham and cheese omelettes.
 
raff55 said:
i don't know, what have you critizised? is it here in this thread?

My post

It is this perfectionism that is the modern problem with Islam. Its ideology can provide sustaining legitimacy for a peaceful course or a violent one. Both are equally valid. So in this regard and at this time in our history Islam, amongst all the major religions, is unique.

Perhaps I was too circumspect with this. I will expand. I think Islam is unique today because too many of its followers will act violently and with frequency.

'Its ideology can provide sustaining legitimacy for a peaceful course or a violent one'. So I would submit it is a duty to examine the texts and if found wanting to call it for what it is. The exhortations to violence are valid from the texts whether or not moderate moslems choose to ignore them.
You are no more qualified to tell others what Islam is than Osama Bin laden was. There is no single voice.

Am I an Islamaphobe?
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i also think one can indeed Interpret Islam the way the extremists like Taliban and Bin laden did. i would not go as far as to call it legit. but it surely is way to Interpret Islam and it is done by far too many nutters. but i Support fighting them with war machinery.

but i guess you know that mos tmoslems do not Interpret it that way. and Islamophobes will go as far as to Claim that moderate Moslems simply lie and just Play nice until they are the majority etc. and that is in my oppinion a phobia, a irrational fear, ist even a huge conspiracy theory where People seem to ccoperate that hate eachother..... totally irrational.

do you also believe that?

btw, neither you or Daniel Pipes nor Metacristi are as qualified to tell me what ISlam is than Moslems themself.

ETA: and i am well Aware that my Impression of Moslems is very modern as i am mostly with Alevite Kirds, and they are the most modern Moslems i have come across ever. it was a alevite kurdish Imam that told me that humans are more important than Religion. this is alsothe reson they have no Problem to eat and drink during Ramadan , during day time. they know ist unhealthy to not to when doing hard Labor. so they put their health above Religion.....

but i am well Aware that also in my City there are other modelms that would not be so modern. but all this Shows to me is that Moslems are not the monolithic entity the islamophobes tell me they are.
 
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I believe that most moderate Muslims just want to live peacefully bettering their family's life. They will acknowledge their religion and submit to it. They will choose to ignore the violent side as best they can. An astonishing number have never read the Quran and Hadiths relying on Scholars to do it for them.

Unfortunately they are not controlling the narrative. So we have address those who are and what is the foundation of their claims.
That is the Quran and Hadiths which are incompatible with a modern secular society.
It is pronounced as perfect and provides religious belief, social behavior rules, political strictures, economic disciplines it even intrudes into sexual behavior and dietary needs.

To ignore its central texts is to ignore its reason for existence.
 
I meant to ask am I an Islamaphobe ? Given that I think a fundamental Islam is violently opposed to a Western style democracy.

Incidentally do you know that the Alawhites are regarded by fundementalists as heretics worse than the Kaffur ?
 
raff55 said:
I believe that most moderate Muslims just want to live peacefully bettering their family's life. They will acknowledge their religion and submit to it. They will choose to ignore the violent side as best they can. An astonishing number have never read the Quran and Hadiths relying on Scholars to do it for them.

Unfortunately they are not controlling the narrative. So we have address those who are and what is the foundation of their claims.
That is the Quran and Hadiths which are incompatible with a modern secular society.
It is pronounced as perfect and provides religious belief, social behavior rules, political strictures, economic disciplines it even intrudes into sexual behavior and dietary needs.

To ignore its central texts is to ignore its reason for existence.
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when you want me to Label you an Islamophobe you Need to stop saying things like this :"I believe that most moderate Muslims just want to live peacefully bettering their family's life. " :D
 
raff55 said:
I meant to ask am I an Islamaphobe ? Given that I think a fundamental Islam is violently opposed to a Western style democracy.
Incidentally do you know that the Alawhites are regarded by fundementalists as heretics worse than the Kaffur ?
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yes i know. there are several such Groups that hate eachother. and all of them Claim and believe to be the real Moslems :D

i agree with you on the hilited part. maybe we have different opinions of what fundamental Islam is ?

i still do not see you as an islamophobe at all. am i missing something? :D
 
DC said:
yes, metacristi is one. he bases his knowledge about Islam on some of the most famous islamophobes like Pipes for example.
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What are you basing your knowledge on?
 
Therein lies the paradox.

How to criticise Islamic theology without offending Muslims? The ideology does not exist outwith reality it is people who expound it.

Part of shutting down the debate is the accusation of Islamaphobia or racism.
It has been thrown around too often. What I have said I have said before and I been told I was Islamaphobic.

I think 'Liberals' find it difficult for example to criticise misogyny or homophobia in the ideology is because understandably they do not want to appear to be on the same side as appalling real right wing bigots.
 
Dcdrac said:
I will criticize any religion if all its adherents actively call for the death of others on doctrinal grounds whatever the religion.

Tricky thing is I have yet to meet any adherent to a major religion that does call for another persons death on doctrinal grounds.
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Chances are if you do the last thing you'll hear is, "Allahu akbar!"
 
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